Need some mixing advice on this track

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cparmerlee
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2013/08/03 18:08:21 (permalink)

Need some mixing advice on this track

I am doing some accompaniment tracks for a set of etudes by Marco Bordogni that are very popular among classical instrumentalists.  This one is a bit of a problem:
http://bordogni.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Vol1-07-t.mp3
 
It is a jazz waltz with vibes, guitar, strings and drums -- plus a solo trombone in this case.
 
I realize the drum track is really lame.  I need to work on that.
 
The vibes and guitar seem to be fighting for the same space, and the strings are in that same tessatura.  I don't really care that much about the strings.  I could probably raise them an octave to get them out of the way.  But I really can't get the vibes and guitar where you can hear those voices clearly.  I do have then somewhat separated on the stereo pans.  I also EQ'ed the vibes to reduce the fundamental and bring out more of the characteristic overtones.
 
Any ideas would be appreciated.  It could be that cleaning up the drums would help because the ride and crash are probably covering up some of the material.

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    kev11111111111111
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/03 19:14:43 (permalink)
    Nice tune !! Im not an expert in mixing,but here are my suggestions.
     
    As the trombone is the main element in the mix,I would try to give it more presence,make it stand out from the guitar and the vibes. Maybe work out where that freq is on the trombone and cut that from the backing ?? You could also try cloning the trombone part and panning it to make it wider..
    I thought the drums sounded ok,but the guitar could be a little brighter with more attack.
    The dynamic changes are nice, as is the backing.Its just needs a little more work.Hopefully others on the forum will have some ideas for you too.
    Kev
     

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    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/03 19:45:11 (permalink)
    kev11111111111111
     the guitar could be a little brighter with more attack.



    This was (supposedly) an acoustic guitar.  I wonder if it might be a better idea to make it electric with some distortion.  I wonder if that would make it more recognizable as a guitar, distinct from the vibes without having to bring it up in the mix.

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    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/03 20:56:10 (permalink)
    Here is an updated version  
    http://bordogni.info/wp-c...8/V17-T-Sonar-Ver2.mp3
     
    Here are the changes:
    • Switched the guitar to a Stratocaster
    • Pushed vibes farther to the left, guitar farther to the right
    • Changed the strings to be short bows, and then added verb to take off that harshness.  I really didn't need the long pads.  The strokes seem to give the groove a little more energy and leave more room in the middle spectrum
    Now the guitar really jumps out.  It may be too hot.
     
    post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/08/03 21:04:59

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/03 21:22:34 (permalink)
    The vibes don't sound anything like vibes, just a horrible muffled non descript sound. (Do you know what vibes actually sound like? Listen to Gary Burton and Chick Corea)
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRSjLkj0VMw
     
    You need to get them sounding like vibes. Nice and clear with the attack that they normally have. Guitar sound is also too similar to the vibes. A little better but you need to EQ that guitar to sound like a guitar. Pan those two though that is a good idea. Trombone sounds OK (although it drops away here and there, any reason?)  Bass sounds nice. Drums are non existent. Are they there or not? If they are they need to be clear. I want to hear the ride cymbal/snare not loud but clearly.
     
    This is a case where you need to solo everything one at a time and get each thing sounding great in solo then bring them in all together and adjust accordingly.
     
     

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    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/03 22:01:49 (permalink)
    Jeff Evans
    The vibes don't sound anything like vibes, just a horrible muffled non descript sound. (Do you know what vibes actually sound like?

    I play regularly with Billy Wooten.  We're doing a concert on Wednesday, actually.
    Jeff EvansGuitar sound is also too similar to the vibes.

    You're talking about the first example, right?  I think they sound fairly distinct in the second sample. 
    http://bordogni.info/wp-c...8/V17-T-Sonar-Ver2.mp3
     
    I'm not sure that is a great guitar sound, but it doesn't sound like the vibes.

    Now that the overlap between vibes and guitar is cleared up a bit, I'll work on that vibe sound.
     
    Thanks.
     




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    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/03 23:42:58 (permalink)
    Here is a third version
    http://bordogni.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/V17-T-Sonar-Ver3.mp3
     
    This is getting a lot closer to what I had hoped for.  I think the vibes and guitar sound a bit more realistic.  The guitar is simple comping in the background, so I didn't expect it to sound like Jimi Hendrix.
     
    Also btw, the changes in the trombone volume are all acoustic -- not from fader actions.  This matches the dynamics in the etude.  I know it doesn't sound completely musical, as the dynamic changes are exaggerated.  But that is one of the points of the exercise.  It is completely natural for a wind player to do this, but it sounds unnatural for the band to make that big of a change.
     
    I may do another take on the trombone part.  I thought it was a decent take, but for some reason I played most of the middle Cs flat.  I don't know what happened with that.
    post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/08/03 23:58:58

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    kev11111111111111
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/04 04:09:39 (permalink)
    double post : (
    post edited by kev11111111111111 - 2013/08/04 07:34:54

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    kev11111111111111
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/04 04:09:44 (permalink)
    Hey Cparmerlee
     
    I'd be happy to record real guitar for you,if you're willing to record a trombone part for me.Also send me the midi part for the keys parts,I have a nice Vibraphone VST which would bring the part more to life ! Send me a message if u're interested and I'll send u my email address.
    Kev
     

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/04 05:40:53 (permalink)
    Well Craig sounds like the results you are going to get in your final mix depend a lot on the quality of the sounds you are using to play the parts. I am bit spoilt in that I have a new Kurzweil synth with probably the best vibes patch on the planet and after that everything sounds pretty ordinary. I have played with them live too and recorded them too on a few ocassions so I know how good that can sound. It is all in the attack part of the sound.
     
    The trombone lowering in volume sounds more like a technical problem rather than the piece itself. That is how I heard it anyway.
     
    The drums are still sounding low to me too and it would be good to try and bring them out a little out front too if possible. Unless you are not overly happy with the programming and I can understand you holding them back if you are not. A relaxed jazz 3/4 groove is not easy to program by any means.
     
    If you send me the midi file I can record a live drum part and perhaps put the Kurzweil on the vibe track for you too and send all the audio back. It has got a killer double bass patch too.

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    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/04 10:44:25 (permalink)
    Kev and Jeff,  I wasn't really shooting for a world class thing here.  The standards don't have to be too high for what amounts to a "Music minus one" practice tool.  But I was using this to improve my skills in putting the mix together.  So I'm definitely game for trying the things you guys generously suggested. 
     
    I have uploaded files to
    https://files.secureserver.net/0faWeJZoXT3mzj
    You should be able to access without a password.  There are two MIDI files.  The larger one has the source for vibes, strings, bass, guitar.  The other one has the source I used for the drum track.  I also included the WAV for the trombone part.
     
    On the drum track, yes I was holding it back in the mix because it sounded so ordinary.  That bit came from a band-in-a-bix rendering.  I ran it into SessionDrummer3, but I never got it sounding very good.  For some reason, I couldn't get the kick drum to speak much at all.  I think BIAB must have some strangeness in the velocity on the kick.  I hadn't dig into that yet.  It is passable for my current purposes, but I'd like to learn how to make that sound better.
     
    I'd be happy to record real trombone parts.  I could do euphonium or tuba as well (or cimbasso if you need a tuba-range part that cuts through like a knife.)
    post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/08/04 11:49:40

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    theguitarplayer
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/04 13:50:07 (permalink)
    Have you hit this with compression and limiting yet? I'd compress first then limit. Should work great, as long as you get the adjustments right for all the instrumentation. Everything needs their own space and levels have to be right. Good luck.
     
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    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/04 20:02:51 (permalink)
    theguitarplayer
    Have you hit this with compression and limiting yet?



    I did put the LP-64 multiband compressor on the master bus.  I am a "yellow belt" regarding compression.  I have not developed any kind of a comfort zone for using compression effectively.  That LP-64, with its default settings has immediately improved the sound of every project where I have tried it.  I think I made some minor tweaks to the LP-64 settings.
     
    I did not use a limiter.  My max gain is under 0dB without it.  Do you have any advice about using limiters on the master bus?  I take it that the normal practice is to put that last in the chain.  But how aggressive are you with limiting?  Do you intentionally push the peaks a little past 0dB and then let the limiter chop the peakiest of the peaks?
    post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/08/04 20:25:34

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    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/06 00:06:09 (permalink)
    Making a little progress.  It is slow going because I'm taking lots of side trips, learning many things that aren't directly applicable to this song, but are definitely part of the overall learning curve.  As Edison famously said, "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.""
    Here is the latest: http://bordogni.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/V17-T-Sonar-Ver4.mp3
     
    Summary of changes:
    1. I switched to a vibes sample with harder mallets.  I think that is probably more what you guys had in mind.  And it makes a big difference.  I was able to actually drop the vibes in the mix a little.  Now I think the guitar and vibes are very distinct.  I am thinking I have them separated too far in the stereo mix.  I put the vibes about 80% left and the guitar about 80% right just to try to hear the separation.  I don't think that is necessary anymore, and the separation sounds unnatural to me.  Any opinions about that?
    2. I shifted the strings up about a 5th (inverting the chords) to get them above the vibes, guitar, and trombone.  That seems like a normal range for violins.  It is well within their comfortable range.
    3. I think I went to a different bass that is maybe using a pick, or at least has a little more edge.  I added some transient processing to try to get that to bite without being louder.
    4. The drums still suck, but I did work on the bass drum a little, bringing the velocities into a more consistent range and adding more downbeats, but it sounds like this jazz quartet had to settle for a polka drummer this time 'round.
    5. I discovered an error/oversight.  In my Aria synth (vibes, bass, guitar, and strings), the reverb was on by default.  That was a problem from double reverb, plus it was adding the verb material into the bass track.  I killed all that and it cleaned up nicely.  All my reverb is at the track level within SONAR.  I have none on the bass, drums, or vibes.  I have a little on the guitar and trombone and a lot on the strings because they were too choppy after I switched them to short bow strokes.
    6. I added a limiter on the master bus and pushed up the volume to where the limiter only trips a little.
    I'm thinking the accompaniment is decent now.  Definitely a big improvement from where I started.  I need to go back in and track the trombone volume to match the comp better, but I may just do another take on that first.
    post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/08/06 00:13:09

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    theguitarplayer
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/06 00:27:37 (permalink)
    I listened twice and I'm thinking all you really need to do is drop the volume back a bit on the trombone. You can hear everything else but because the trombone is so far up front it is drowning everything else out. Once you drop the trombone back a bit then check all the other track volumes and adjust where necessary so everything can be clearly heard on an even keel. It does sound much better with all the changes you have done so far. Very nice piece when you get it all fixed and balanced out.
     
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    ULTRABRA
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/06 02:01:46 (permalink)
    The overall volume of the track is fluctuating a lot.
    post edited by ULTRABRA - 2013/08/06 02:48:20

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    The Band19
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/06 03:12:13 (permalink)
    I have advise?
     
    Ask less? "Listen more..."
     
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/Posts/78203?forumid=27

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    The Band19
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/06 03:12:17 (permalink)
    They asked for input/advice? 
     
    I have advice?
    Ask less? "Listen more..."
     
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/Posts/78203?forumid=27
     
    If you click the link, you'll see?
     
    Yeaup... Actually most people do exactly what this poster does? They post material, they request feedback, however, they provide "none" on anything that anyone else does? (PLEASE people? keep your female dog comments to yourself? It's a legitimate observation, and that is all it is.) Please click the link above for an example of what I'm talking about.
     
    Unfortunately, "People feed it?" And will continue to do so. I'm not commenting on the music? "I didn't listen..." I would have loved to have listened? And I would have done so "gladly?" And I would have provided honest feedback... However? The poster did not give me the option to either listen, or comment honestly based on their history... And my principals. 
     
    It may have been excellent? (Their song?)
     
    However, I'll never know... Because I won't feed it. If everyone posts and nobody listens? Well, you do the math... Just my opinion, others have their own? There's may be correct? Mine may be... But I'm allowed to state mine without animus.
    post edited by The Band19 - 2013/08/06 03:52:21

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/06 08:35:37 (permalink)
    Jeff's advice up stairs a bit was what I would suggest.... solo everything one at a time and get them sounding like they are supposed to sound..... not muffled but crisp and bright.
     
    I generally start mixing with 2 instruments...... bass and drums. In the music I write, they are the foundation upon which everything else is built. As a matter of fact, they should sound so good that a singer could jump in and there would really be no need for anything else. When I get there, or close, I start to add the other things like guitar, piano, and more..... but after I solo them to get the EQ right so they are sounding like I'm in the room with them.
     
    Starting with the drums and bass comes from the old band sound check days.... drums were always first, then we added the other stuff, and could turn the drums down as needed... if that was needed. Same thing I do in the studio.... I want to hear the drums as part of the mix and not an afterthought. I did not hear the drums very well even in the last post #14... but the style of music probably doesn't lend well to prominent drums...
     
    anyway, my 2 cents

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    #19
    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/06 10:01:23 (permalink)
    ULTRABRA
    The overall volume of the track is fluctuating a lot.


    As I noted above, the purpose of this project is to produce "music minus one" accompaniments for the Bordogni vocalises.  These are musical exercises, and one of the things they stress is developing control over a wide range of dynamics.  The fluctuations in the volume are to follow the dynamics marked in the music.  I realize this isn't as "musical" or natural sounding as people are accustomed to hearing.  It is a trade-off in order to make the tool effective for its primary purpose.
    post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/08/06 12:23:03

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    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/06 10:07:53 (permalink)
    The Band19
    They asked for input/advice? 
     
    I have advice?
    Ask less? "Listen more..."
     
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/Posts/78203?forumid=27
     
    If you click the link, you'll see?

    Actually, I don't see.  I am new to this forum.  I participate in the X2 threads if I think I have something relevant to contribute.  A poster over there suggested I post an example here and that is what I did.  I don't get your point.  I certainly have appreciated the advice that others have offered.
     
    If you are saying that I haven't commented on others' mixes, that is true.  I don't feel my expertise is developed enough to offer useful suggestions yet. That is, after all, why I came here to ask for some help.  I think I know my limitations.
     
    If you would prefer every yahoo just make random comments on each thread, I guess I can give that a try, but that just doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.
     
    post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/08/06 10:21:23

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    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/06 10:20:29 (permalink)
    Guitarhacker
    Starting with the drums and bass comes from the old band sound check days.... drums were always first, then we added the other stuff, and could turn the drums down as needed... if that was needed. Same thing I do in the studio.... I want to hear the drums as part of the mix and not an afterthought. I did not hear the drums very well even in the last post #14... but the style of music probably doesn't lend well to prominent drums...

    I appreciate that.  And this song starts with a lame drum track, so I'm kind of screwed.  :)  I'll definitely take your approach on the next project.  I'm going to freeze this one now because there are 100 more of these vocalises to produce.  This one is far from perfection, but it is much better because of all the input.  And I know the next one will be a lot better by paying more attention to the fundamentals people have mentioned.
     
    For the record, here is the final version of this one. 
    http://bordogni.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/V17-T-Sonar-Ver5.mp3
     
    The main changes here were that I narrowed the stereo field and tracked the trombone closer to the band.
     
    Thank you all for the help.  It really is appreciated.
     

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    #22
    ULTRABRA
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/06 11:57:06 (permalink)
    If you say so ... To me, it sounds completely wrong.

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    #23
    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/06 12:33:09 (permalink)
    ULTRABRA
    If you say so ... To me, it sounds completely wrong.

    Do yiou play a wind instrument?  To perform at a high level on a wind instrument, one must really master the radical changes in breath control and embouchure support to play beautifully at different sound volumes.  It is a lot more than turning a knob.  Every instrument has its challenges.  This is among the biggest challenge for most wind instruments.  So these vocalise exercises exaggerate the dynamic range to extremes.  I understand that it "sounds completely wrong" but these are the levels needed for the exercise to be effective practice.
     
    I think with a lot of work I could go into the accompaniment tracks and change what they are playing as they lead into the ppp sections.  That might make it sound more natural, but hitting the vibes with a hard mallet at ppp is really a disconnect.  It would probably be better to drop out some of the voices in the softer sections -- drop the guitar and vibes and just go with bass and strings, for example.  I may try something like that on the next project.
     
    Thanks for the feedback.

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    #24
    ULTRABRA
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/07 02:32:32 (permalink)
    Yes, I play the trumpet and the oboe.  This isn't about the natural dynamics of a wind instrument.  Its about the volume of the entire track fluctuating up and down as if someone is turning the volume knob.  It sounds wrong to take the levels of everything suddenly down because the trombone is playing quieter.  A change in arrangement at that point (like a "drop") could work.  
    post edited by ULTRABRA - 2013/08/07 03:54:23

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    #25
    The Band19
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/07 02:51:22 (permalink)
    You're right, listen less? Ask more, I agree, and 90% of posters agree with you as well?  Regardless of if you can provide good input on the mix or not? Listening takes time! And taking time SUCKS! My time is worth much more than most... I'm going to join you!
     
    I'm starting by not listening to this? (I can't give good advice, and my time is so important?) Thanks so much for your advice :-) You rock HARD! (So I've heard? But I haven't actually listened...)
    post edited by The Band19 - 2013/08/07 02:57:12

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    #26
    guitartrek
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/07 07:28:55 (permalink)
    You're getting closer.  The volume fluctuations are glaring - the different dynamics marked in the music should be handled entirely differently.  Sounds like you are adding volume envelopes all over the place - this sounds completely unnatural.  You should start by deleting all the volume envelopes.  To achieve dynamic changes you can do a couple things:  
    1) adjust the velocities of your midi notes in the different sections of your piece - this will go a long way toward a more natural sound.  if your midi instruments are good, they will respond to different velocities by producing natural dynamics.  Not just changes in output, but changes in brightness.  As the velocity goes up, so does the brightness of the instrument.  That said, you can go overboard with velocities too, so watch this - keep it subtle.
    2) Adjust the arrangement.  The louder passages should more dense - more instruments, more simultaneous notes.  The quieter passages - less dense - less instruments.  You don't have to have all instruments playing all the time.  Or maybe during a quieter passage the vibes play on single or two notes at a time, or less notes per measure....etc.  Also - you need to vary the drums - during quiet passages pick a closed HiHat or something.  During louder passages, go to the ride cymbal more.  Maybe you're already doing this?  Problem is I can't hear the cymbals.  On the whole the drums need to come up in the mix.  The cymbals are barely audible.
     
    Don't give up - each version you've made shows big improvements.  Just get rid of those volume envelopes and adjust your arrangement.

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    #27
    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/07 08:57:22 (permalink)
    OK.  You guys have convinced me.  Yes, I was using a lot of envelopes.  I'll take another pass adjusting velocities and thinning the arrangement to achieve that effect.  But I won't be able to get to that for a few days.
     
    Thanks.

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    #28
    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/15 16:50:28 (permalink)
    Here is the reworked version.
    http://bordogni.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/V17-Sonar-Ver6.mp3
     
    I brought in a new drum track and then did a lot of editing on that to try to get it more like what a drummer would actually play in this situation.  I think it is better, but there seems to be a deal that part of the snare is coming out on sticks and part is on brushes.  I haven't researched that yet  And the crash cymbal sounds more like a gong.  So that could still be improved a lot.  I haven't figured out how to substitute individual kit pieces on Session Drummer yet.
     
    I did eliminate all the envelopes except for where I an taking out an instrument entirely for a few measures.
     
    I did a bit of work with velocities, which I think worked better.  And I did some pruning to make the arrangement not as dense.  It still sounds really dense to me, so I might go back a lot more aggressively simplifying some of the parts (mainly vibes and drums)
     
    Anyway, hopefully this eliminates the problem of it sounding like too much riding of the faders.

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    #29
    cparmerlee
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    Re: Need some mixing advice on this track 2013/08/17 12:02:39 (permalink)
    Well, the more I listened to that "version 6" track, the more I hated it.  The whole thing just sounds way too busy, and seems extremely compressed (even though I didn't use much compression).  The  spectrum is so full that the meters barely bounced at all during playback.  The drums were obnoxious and the bass came across too heavy when I listened on some cheap PC speakers.  (That is strange because I would have thought the PC speakers would have less bass than my studio monitors.)
     
    So I went back to the drawing board.  I retained the recorded trombone track (out of tune middle C and all), but replaced everything else with a completely different arrangement that has better drums, and mainly just a trio for accompaniment.  (Piano, bass, drums with some light pads here and there.)  I like this a whole lot better.  I think the vibes were just too resonant to stay out of the way of the trombone and guitar.  I edited the MIDI on the piano to make it light and punchy.
     
    http://bordogni.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/V17-T-Sonar-Ver7.mp3
     
    I have learned a lot of techniques with this project, but the main thing is I got a real dose of "you can't mix your way out of crappy tracks." And a really interesting psycho-acoustic thing is that the bad pitch on the middle-Cs really doesn't bother me nearly as much on this track now.  I guess when the rest of the track was irritating, that caused my ear to go to every flaw, and this one is easier to enjoy without having such a critical ear.
     
    Thanks again for all the ideas along the way.

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    #30
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