Fred Holmes
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Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
I have a file with many many changes in tempo ( it sounded good while listening) but when I get to singing with it I realize that the entire piece needs an increase in tempo but with all the variations intact..
Now, of the tempo was an envelope I'd just grab it and raise it up. But of course it isn't.
Is there any way in Sonar ( or with some external mfx) to accomplish this?
Thanks,
Fred
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CJaysMusic
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/05 17:47:16
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I would just go into your tempo map and increase each section by the same amount. I think its the only way to do it
Cj
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lorneyb2
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/05 18:01:54
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CJ, would the Process - Length or Process - Fit to time accomplish this? I have never used either of these functions but from the description of what he is trying to do and what it says these functions do it seems like it may work. I don't know if you can select the whole project or if there are any special considerations like ensuring all clips start at the same place or not. Maybe someone can jump in here who has actually used these utilities.
Lorne
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dmbaer
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/05 18:04:01
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You don't say, but I assume the existing tracks are all MIDI? In any event, look up "Fit to time" or "Process-Fit to time" in the doc. I think it may do exactly what you need.
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CJaysMusic
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/05 19:10:03
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CJ, would the Process - Length or Process - Fit to time accomplish this? I cant say for sure.. I never done what the poster is trying to do. I have changed the temp to a whole project with audio snap, but the project was the same tempo. Now, i have no clue if the poster means midi or audio. Cj
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Reegs
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/05 19:23:12
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What about a CAL script to do it?
Fred, you gave me an idea for a feature:
I wish the Tempo list was formatted like an excel spreadsheet. Then to bump everything up 20bpm or 20% it would be as simple as copying the list into excel, running the numbers through the right formula, and pasting it back in.
It would sure beat tweaking each entry of a drawn line manually. (But envelopes would be even nicer.)
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Reegs
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/05 19:30:38
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dmbaer
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/05 19:35:52
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CJaysMusic
CJ, would the Process - Length or Process - Fit to time accomplish this?
I cant say for sure.. I never done what the poster is trying to do. I have changed the temp to a whole project with audio snap, but the project was the same tempo. Now, i have no clue if the poster means midi or audio.
Cj
I confess I've never tried fit-to-time, so I can't say with certainty it'll work. But tempo control is a topic I'm pretty intently interested in and I've inferred from several other posts here over the last year that it'll do exactly what the OP wants. Using a CAL script, as Reegs suggests, might work but it seems like it's using a bulldozer to drive a nail. If fit-to-time keeps the relative tempo changes intact (and I'd bet money it will), it's just the hammer we need for the job.
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dilletant
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/05 20:49:19
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Fret Wizz
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/05 21:31:06
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A Tempo offset would be good to have eh?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 05:56:53
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Process > Length won't work - that just changes the length of MIDI notes, not their start times.
You'd just end up with a bunch of overlapping notes.
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Fred Holmes
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 09:21:21
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Thanks everyone.
Yes this is a midi only file
Process > Fit to time is the solution I used.
This works for me as I don't care to set a specific BMP otherwise I'd have to go through some calculations (OBTW For future reference - anyone know of a utility that does this?)
If the tempo was just abrupt time changes I'd just go down the list on the right side of the tempo view and add in a constant to each value.
Thanks also for the references to other forum tempo answers. My original search just didn't come up with anything useful
I'd still like to see tempo as an envelope/nodes or tempo offset
The Scale Tempo CAL file does not work (at least in Sonar 8.5pe).
Fred
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RTGraham
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 10:37:30
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CJaysMusic
I would just go into your tempo map and increase each section by the same amount. I think its the only way to do it
Cj
Good thought, but it won't preserve the *relationships* of the tempo changes. When there are multiple tempo variations - especially accelerando or ritard ramps, etc. - everything needs to change by a *percentage* for it to feel like the relationships are preserved. Fret Wizz
A Tempo offset would be good to have eh?
Would be useful, but as noted above, it would only truly preserve tempo relationships if it offered a percentage mode instead of just a hard offset. I agree that Fit To Time is the solution here.
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dilletant
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 10:54:43
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There is no reliable calculator for "Fit-to-time to BPM" matching. Probably something is wrong in the very core of Sonar's tempo code (see link above).
Scale tempo CAL does not work in Sonar, I think it worked only in MIDI-only version 3 of Cakewalk.
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gkurtenbach
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 14:43:00
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The original request ("need to change overall tempo while preserving variation") would be very useful.
I would love to Cakewalk enhance how it treats tempo. The tempo related functions in Audiosnap are great, especially for creating complex tempo maps from live performances. But once you have a tempo maps its hard to effectively edit it.
Maybe part of the problem is that tempo isn't a series of discrete changes. For example, if I set the tempo at the start of every measure sometimes that tempo seems"shakey" like the drummer is speeding up and slowing down but not in a smooth manner that way real drummers do. Obviously if the drummer was drumming at 120 bpm at the start of measure 1 and then was drumming at 121 bpm at the start of measure 2 they probably didn't jump from 120 to 121 at the start of measure 2 but smoothly increased in someway between. Right now in sonar you can draw in some smooth tempo change between the measure starts but its most likely puts the rest of the tempo map out of sync.
Maybe what is needed is tempo to be presented as smooth curve between measures that a user can edit sort of like curve editing tools in graphics program like photoshop.
Does anyone know of other music apps that represent tempo as curves and allow editing by dragging curve control points?
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stevec
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 14:52:11
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As posted above, I'd like to see a tempo envelope. Along with a tempo offset mode, just like we have for volume envelopes. 
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vanceen
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 14:55:00
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I'm not at my computer with SONAR, but would Tempo Ratio work?
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dmbaer
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 15:55:49
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gkurtenbach
Maybe part of the problem is that tempo isn't a series of discrete changes. For example, if I set the tempo at the start of every measure sometimes that tempo seems"shakey" like the drummer is speeding up and slowing down but not in a smooth manner that way real drummers do.
But doesn't Sonar already have this capability? From the doc: When you use the Draw tool, the speed with which you drag the mouse determines the density of tempo events. To insert a larger number of relatively small tempo changes, move the mouse slowly. To insert a smaller number of relatively large tempo changes, drag the mouse quickly.
And this:
To Steadily Increase or Decrease the Tempo in the Tempo View 1. Enable Groove Clip Looping on any audio clips that you want to follow the tempo changes. Do this by selecting one or more clips, rightclicking a selected clip, and choosing Groove-Clip Looping from the popup menu. Each clip that has Groove Clip Looping enabled has beveled edges instead of sharp corners. The same command disables Groove Clip Looping on any selected clip that has Groove Clip Looping enabled.
What I'm confused about is the "enable groove clip loopping" business. What does this has to do with it? Is there not a single tempo? Or is it just implying (or not bothering to state) that MIDI will follow tempo period. If all you've got is MIDI, you don't need to worry about the groove clipping settings. That's how I hope things are. Does anyone know if that's the correct interpretation?
Also, in reading through this section again in the doc, I can't see any way to tell Sonar to limit tempo changes to, say, quarter note positions. Is there no "snap to grid" equivalent for tempo change events? Presumably, if one does a fit-to-improve, the initial tempo map will align to whatever quantum the click track was made with. But in editing after that, is there no way to stick with that arrangement (i.e., keep events aligned with note boundaries)?
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dmbaer
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 16:22:47
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dmbaer
If all you've got is MIDI, you don't need to worry about the groove clipping settings. That's how I hope things are. Does anyone know if that's the correct interpretation?
Answering my own question ... I just found this in the doc a few pages earlier:
When you change the tempo of a project that contains audio, SONAR allows you to stretch or shrink audio clips when you have converted them to Groove clips and have enabled the Follow Project Pitch option in the Loop Construction view. Otherwise, the MIDI tracks will speed up or slow down while the audio tracks will play at the same speed.
But I'm still curious about some sort of control on limiting at what boundaries tempo change events are placed. Anyone have any wisdom to pass on?
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gkurtenbach
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 16:33:13
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dmbaer
gkurtenbach
Maybe part of the problem is that tempo isn't a series of discrete changes. For example, if I set the tempo at the start of every measure sometimes that tempo seems"shakey" like the drummer is speeding up and slowing down but not in a smooth manner that way real drummers do.
But doesn't Sonar already have this capability? From the doc:
When you use the Draw tool, the speed with which you drag the mouse determines the density of tempo events. To insert a larger number of relatively small tempo changes, move the mouse slowly. To insert a smaller number of relatively large tempo changes, drag the mouse quickly.
yes, Sonar does allow tempo changes to be drawn by hand but doesn't work well in some cases. For example, if I use audiosnap to create tempo map with a tempo change at the start of each measure, then I try to draw smooth tempo changes between the measures, the location of the measures change so I lose sync between my audio and measure locations. Now this can avoided if you set your audio clips to "follow project tempo" but if are happy with the audio and just want a more accurate tempo map you are in trouble. Also, drawing the tempo changes by hand results in rough tempo changes or rather nice smooth curves like you get with clip envelopes. Ideally, what I want is "lock time at the start of these two points" and "let me manipulate a bezier curve" between these two points. Sorry this is hard to explain.... thanks!
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dmbaer
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 18:48:23
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gkurtenbach
For example, if I use audiosnap to create tempo map with a tempo change at the start of each measure, then I try to draw smooth tempo changes between the measures, the location of the measures change so I lose sync between my audio and measure locations.
OK, I understand what you're saying now. For my own pursuits (if I ever get as far as actually creating music and not just trying to master several synths) I'll be dealing exclusively with MIDI, so that's where my mind set is. I'm pretty sure tempo manipulation with recorded audio is not much fun.
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Fret Wizz
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 19:20:40
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stevec
As posted above, I'd like to see a tempo envelope. Along with a tempo offset mode, just like we have for volume envelopes.
+1
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dilletant
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/06 20:54:26
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gkurtenbach
Does anyone know of other music apps that represent tempo as curves and allow editing by dragging curve control points?
Cubase, Ableton Live (straight lines, not curves. But you can drag tempo envelope points).
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RTGraham
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/07 00:25:52
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gkurtenbach
Ideally, what I want is "lock time at the start of these two points" and "let me manipulate a bezier curve" between these two points.
That would be FANTASTIC.
~~~~~~~~~~ Russell T. Graham Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
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dilletant
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/07 07:52:24
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For me it would be enough to have the ability to simply multiply selected tempo map points by certain amount (or percentage). We have some spread-sheet-like table to the right of the tempo pane anyway.
What amazes me is the fact that such a simple task is still unavailable. All I want to do is select time range and adjust all tempi in that range in terms of BPM (old tempo > new tempo).
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bitflipper
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/07 13:13:50
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An even simpler method to implement would be the ability to select a portion of the tempo map and drag it up or down.
The limitation to this idea is that it would not preserve the relative ratios of the tempo changes. It would, however, be adequate 95% of the time, as global tempo changes are typically not radical ones, only a few bpm.
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bmdaustin
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/07 13:35:12
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Bristol_Jonesey
Process > Length won't work - that just changes the length of MIDI notes, not their start times.
You'd just end up with a bunch of overlapping notes.
Process/Length offers two options - note duration OR start times.
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uncleswede
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/07 13:39:54
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Gkurtenbach: Can't offer you a bezier curve to manipulate but, if you drag the tempo draw cursor whilst holding down Ctrl & Shift (with Snap to Grid off) Sonar will draw continuous events in a straight line that you can drag
post edited by uncleswede - 2010/01/07 13:44:21
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...wicked
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/07 14:17:26
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yah, no super easy way. An envelope would be the best feature of all, because you could select part of it or all of it, which in this case would be the dream solution for the poster.
I hear him, I insert gobs of small tempo changes to "humanize" a performance. I've never tried to alter the whole thing after that tho.
I think the easiest way is to bounce it all down and then Audiosnap the mix, where it's much easier to speed up.
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dilletant
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Re:Need to Change overall tempo (with many variations already in place)
2010/01/07 15:49:38
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bitflipper
An even simpler method to implement would be the ability to select a portion of the tempo map and drag it up or down.
You're absolutely right, but we have tempo envelope with no "knots" on it which we could grab and drag, and that's the problem. Besides, sometimes there is need for much more precise tempo adjustments than dragging can provide.
The limitation to this idea is that it would not preserve the relative ratios of the tempo changes. It would, however, be adequate 95% of the time, as global tempo changes are typically not radical ones, only a few bpm.
I could live with absolute, non-relative tempo shifts, but then again, it would be nice to have both options at hand.
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