Helpful ReplyNew (and rather disgusted) User

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MerlinSuderman
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2017/09/18 16:03:46 (permalink)

New (and rather disgusted) User

I want to record multiple MIDI tracks.  Keyboard audio outs go to mixer.  MIDI output thru USB to computer.

Computer outputs go to mixer.  I need to hear previously recorded tracks to record the next MIDI track. 
 
I have muted the track I'm recording.  I've turned off every output device in Sonar.  I've tried everything I can find, but Sonar ALWAYS plays the track back through my keyboard with about 1/4 second latency, which makes recording impossible.
 
I've spent at least 20 hours going through tutorials and documentation and have ended up utterly helpless and unable to perform the most basic function for which I purchased the package.
#1
Joe_A
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 16:22:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jude77 2017/09/19 20:29:29
Wow. That's a great subject line for an introduction though. Everyone knows how frustrating it can be when using a software package new to them whether audio, graphics, database, etc., and so on, so forth...

Because of the many Users who do midi successfully with this DAW, it's obviously more than likely a software setting, hardware setting or even a hardware problem. Maybe an older driver getting in the way.

With the obvious stated and out of the way there are a lot of persons who are midi masters here who can help if so motivated. There's moral support too, always a big help.
I myself can only say hang in there... I'm not a midi master myself. But hang in there or don't, my suggestion is to press on without forgetting to be thankful for what you do have. After you dismiss my email as not being helpful be sure to review my second paragraph.

Keep makin' music!

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#2
stxx
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 16:30:01 (permalink)
What are you using as interface??  If you are trying to monitor through sonar and not the interface's mixer, latency woill likely be an issue.   Unless youre using thunderbolt.    Also, sounds like you have outpit of your midi AND sonar going through the mixer.   YOu only want to hear the output of Sonar combined with the midi and that is where the interface SW comes in.   ALSO, uyou may need to bounce down peviously recorded audio and turn off the FX button in order to prevent latency. ALL DAWs have the same issue.  Its not SONAR itself
 

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mettelus
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 16:36:14 (permalink)
Did you check the MIDI output on your armed track? That should not route back to your keyboard. If muted, input echo should not be an issue, but I would shut that off as well.

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#4
35mm
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 17:07:18 (permalink)
Hello, new (and rather disgusted) user. I understand your frustration but don't blame your tools when the issue is probably down to your inexperience with them. To get the best help from here, please list your exact setup. What keyboard is it and what sound card etc?
 
From what you are saying "Keyboard audio outs go to mixer", it sounds as though your keyboard is a hardware synth and you might be trying to trigger a sound on your hardware synth via Sonar? That's simple enough to do. You say, "Computer outputs go to mixer. ". Do you mean you have sound card outputs going into an analog mixer?
 
What buffer size (audio and midi) are you using?
 
More details will help us help you.

Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
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Starise
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 17:09:05 (permalink)
Hello Merlin, and welcome!
 
I'm sorry to hear of your frustrations. I'll try my best to help and if I can't help I'm sure someone esle can.
 
First though, it would really help if you could post your system specs including audio interface info. At the least, I need more specifics before I can attempt to help. I might need to leave but I'll be back!
 
This sounds to me on the surface like maybe a routing or buffer setting issue. Just my guess early into this.
 
 

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#6
Cactus Music
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 17:31:34 (permalink)
I would forget the hardware synth as a playback source until you get a handle on Sonars MIDI basics. Using a VST soft synth is much easer for getting started. Using outboard gear is a little more complicated so put that asside until you master a simple set up first. 
 
Insert a soft synth like Dim Pro or TTS-1 and get that working first. 

Johnny V  
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#7
Anderton
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 18:58:01 (permalink)
I'm assuming that what you have is a multitimbral hardware synth that plays back different sounds on different channels. You want to record a MIDI track into SONAR that you can also hear on your synthesizer as you play. Furthermore, you want previously played MIDI tracks to play back through specific sounds, on specific channels in your hardware synth.
 
When you say "SONAR plays the track back" I'm not sure whether you mean one that you recorded previously, all the tracks that you recorded previously, or the one that you're currently recording.
 
Latency is most likely a function of the audio interface and computer speed. If you are using an internal audio card with standard Windows drivers (not the new WASAPI ones, assuming your sound card is compatible with them) you will almost certainly experience considerable latency. This is why Steinberg invented the ASIO protocol for Windows, because Windows itself did not provide a low-latency audio solution.
 
I don't think the problem is with SONAR per se, but the way in which it interacts with your system. So, more system information is essential if we are to resolve this problem (which I'm sure can be resolved).

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#8
MerlinSuderman
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 19:55:21 (permalink)
Keyboard is Kurzweil SP3X digital keyboard.  Computer is an HP laptop using the default sound system inside the computer.  It's a Windows 7 box with 4 Gb RAM.  I run all sound through a Mackie mixer into headphones.
 
I'm trying to record a piano midi track.  Then a bass track, and then add drums - all through midi.
 
When I set midi output to the Kurzweil, I don't have the latency problem, but then my original piano track goes to the patch I'm playing on the keyboard, instead of maintaining the piano patch.  Example:  If I'm recording a drum track, the piano part comes out as the various midi drums that correspond to the notes from the piano track.
 
So I set the midi output to the computer's Microsoft synth, but then the note on the track I'm attempting to record sounds with the computer's patch about 1/4 second after I play the note on the digital keyboard.  That's what I'm trying to eliminate.  If there was an option to have no midi output on individual tracks, that would solve the problem, but I've only found that under Edit->Preferences and it's global, not track specific.
 
Until recently, I was doing that in Cakewalk on an XP box with no problems, but I was using a Sound Blaster card instead of the built-in sound system (there's really no sound card in a laptop) I'm now using.

I could record, edit, and work with the midi until I get it the way I want, and then record that onto an audio track.  That would solve the problem, but it adds a lot of steps in a multi-track recording.
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Cactus Music
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 20:00:53 (permalink)
All I'll say again is your doing it the hard way, stop thinking in 15 year old terms and start using what is now how it is done with VST instruments. 
I could spend a few paragraphs telling you how to make your system work but ?? As I said , record the midi data and use it to trigger a soft synth, Your obviously tangled up in loop back and channel assignment issues. With soft synths that won't happen. 

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#10
joakes
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 20:08:07 (permalink)
The MS synth is notorious for producing latency. Dump it.

To say as others have tried, Use a soft synth.

Jerry

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#11
MerlinSuderman
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 20:54:20 (permalink)
Now I know what a soft synth is and I've learned what VST means.  I'm a guitar player who can play some keys.  I'm not up to speed on the language used here.  I inserted the TTS-1 soft synth into my project and the latency problem ended.  I've still got the first recorded track changing the settings on my keyboard, so when I try to add a bass line to a previously recorded piano track, theplayback changes my keyboard to the patch from the first track.  I think the various soft synths (Bass, Drums, etc) may solve that issue. 
 
I can't believe it's taken me at least 6 months since I got Sonar to discover the soft synth module.  The tutorials with the program seemed geared to the latest features in editing and made the assumption that any user was already familiar with basic functions.
 
I still find the software incredibly difficult to learn and work with.  I've supported computer systems for over 20 years and I've written documentation for a company with $500 million in annual software sales.  In dealing with Sonar I've run into a lot of "Just do XXX" and I don't have the slightest clue what "XXX" is or how to do it.
#12
samson7842
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 21:40:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dcumpian 2017/09/19 12:03:27
MerlinSuderman
Now I know what a soft synth is and I've learned what VST means.  I'm a guitar player who can play some keys.  I'm not up to speed on the language used here.  I inserted the TTS-1 soft synth into my project and the latency problem ended.  I've still got the first recorded track changing the settings on my keyboard, so when I try to add a bass line to a previously recorded piano track, theplayback changes my keyboard to the patch from the first track.  I think the various soft synths (Bass, Drums, etc) may solve that issue. 
 
I can't believe it's taken me at least 6 months since I got Sonar to discover the soft synth module.  The tutorials with the program seemed geared to the latest features in editing and made the assumption that any user was already familiar with basic functions.
 
I still find the software incredibly difficult to learn and work with.  I've supported computer systems for over 20 years and I've written documentation for a company with $500 million in annual software sales.  In dealing with Sonar I've run into a lot of "Just do XXX" and I don't have the slightest clue what "XXX" is or how to do it.


Sonar is actually very easy to operate. Pick-up Scott Garrigus' Sonar book. It got me up and running smoothly in less than 45 mins. Now, the book is old, but the basics are still true. I think it's a great resource for any Sonar beginner. It's laid out in a very easy to follow manor. 
 
BTW, I'm no tech guy in the least.

Lateef Murdock
 
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#13
Cactus Music
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 21:51:34 (permalink)
Awesome, yes it takes a lot of us months to get up to speed. It is worth it and visiting this forum is probably one of Sonars best learning tools. Don't be afraid to even say,, I need step by step instructions to do X. If someone has the time they will be glad to do this. 
 
So your making good progress. 
The issue with program changes is when you use a multi timbral synth ( one that can play more than one instrument ) you need to use channels for each instrument. 
The TTS-1 can play 16 instruments and drums default to Channel 10 , the General Midi ( GM) standard. 
So I had my own system of Piano on CH 1 , bass on CH 2 etc. 
But that said TTS_1 is a basic lo fi synth and I only use it as a starting point. 
From there you can upgrade your sounds by exploring the other VST's. Like SI Bass and Addictive drums. 
Those can all just use Channel 1 because they are only one instrument at a time. 
 
To stop Sonar from sending Channel info to your Keyboard you'll need to go into it's settings and shut of receive PG info.. That's why I said it gets too complicated :) 
 
 

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#14
stxx
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 21:56:28 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/09/19 15:31:27
If you are using internal sound card suggest you learn about the WASPI driver otherwise you will never get good results.  What are you using as your input feed?   The line in on the sound card???

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bapu
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 22:08:04 (permalink)
internal sound cards are plagued by horrible latency (you'll find that out once you get enough tracks going and adding VSTs on type of your soft-synths).
 
But then what would expect from a part that costs about $1.43 to manufacture as compared to a decent $100 or $400 or even high caliber $4000 sound card?
 
#16
Cactus Music
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 22:08:31 (permalink)
actually I use ASIO4all over WASAPI on my midi only system. I tested both and ASIO4all was much better latency and stable as a rock. Been using this for 6 month now. 
If the OP switches to soft synths he will no longer need to record audio. 
But for audio you absolutely need a proper ASIO interface. 

Johnny V  
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#17
bapu
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 22:11:27 (permalink)
Cactus Music
actually I use ASIO4all over WASAPI on my midi only system. I tested both and ASIO4all was much better latency and stable as a rock. Been using this for 6 month now. 
If the OP switches to soft synths he will no longer need to record audio. 
But for audio you absolutely need a proper ASIO interface. 


Correct. He's a guitar player and I'd imagine one day he will want to record his guitar when he discovers that he can have amp sims for no more than two Benjamins that give him about $10,000 in amp choices (if it were hardware).
 
At least the OP should be aware that a $100 (minimum) sound card (often referred to as an interface) is looming on the horizon.
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bapu
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 22:13:13 (permalink)
Also, I did use ASIO4All on my laptop when I was doing remote mixing. Until I got my ADK Pro laptop that is.
post edited by bapu - 2017/09/18 23:26:43
#19
Anderton
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 22:29:14 (permalink)
Just be aware that ASIO4ALL works fine on some systems and not on others...luck of the draw.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Cactus Music
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/18 23:22:08 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/09/18 23:27:16
Anderton
Just be aware that ASIO4ALL works fine on some systems and not on others...luck of the draw.





 
Ha ha ,, just like anything to do with a computer, including Sonar :) 
 
But if your only doing midi it will work with either WASAPI or ASIO4all. The by far worst is MME which people end up using because they for unknown reasons are actually told to try it??? ya, in 1999 but not anymore. 
 
Ya Ed, we still call them sound cards even though technically that would imply a PCIe interface as in a "card" you insert in an computer orifice. I always though they were Birthday cards that when you open them they played music :)  
 

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#21
MerlinSuderman
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/19 02:12:35 (permalink)
Thanks to all you guys (or gals) who tried to help.  Your consideration is greatly appreciated.

I still have a lot to learn, but generally if I can get pointed in the right direction, I can get going.  Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with a lot of the terms used in recording software, which has made getting help difficult for everyone.

I'm going to get the book that was recommended.  I am going to learn to use the software, and I'm going to learn to use it well.  I had given up, but then I made a commitment to do some recording.  Everyone I talked to told me to get GarageBand, but I wanted to give Sonar another shot.  I think I'm on the right track now.
#22
Markubl2
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/19 03:33:09 (permalink)
MerlinSuderman
 
I still find the software incredibly difficult to learn and work with.  I've supported computer systems for over 20 years and I've written documentation for a company with $500 million in annual software sales.  In dealing with Sonar I've run into a lot of "Just do XXX" and I don't have the slightest clue what "XXX" is or how to do it.



This is my challenge exactly.  I've no experience with recording or DAWS, but can work around computers with the best of them.  This forum has by far been the best resource for me.  I started at level 0 right at a year ago, and I have learned a ton since.  I've started several threads here on issues, and without fail the good folks here have been able to help me.   Or, at least help me through my mass Confusion. 
#23
Anderton
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/19 03:34:46 (permalink)
GarageBand is good for what it does, but you can go only so far before you hit a wall. Today's DAWs are like learning not just an instrument, but the music theory behind it.
 
The first company that makes a DAW with a satisfying introductory experience, but can which expand as the person learns more, will do very well. IMHO probably Ableton Live comes closest to that ideal (although to be fair, it's also true that lots of people simply cannot wrap their head around the paradigm), but all of these programs still have a long way to go - especially when they have to play nice with Windows.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#24
MerlinSuderman
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/19 04:16:06 (permalink)
Right now I'm not looking for a studio sound done by pros.  I'm looking for something I can share with friends.  Unfortunately, I'm a cancer survivor and that cost me my employment, so I don't have the $$ for some of the suggestions I've seen. 
 
Here's something I've done.  I can do better with editing and balancing, but I had a hardware issue and lost all the original tracks, so all I've got left is the .WAV file.  If I can get to this level with the ability to balance the tracks better, that's about all I need.


#25
ljb500
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/19 05:19:50 (permalink)
MerlinSuderman
Thanks to all you guys (or gals) who tried to help.  Your consideration is greatly appreciated.

I still have a lot to learn, but generally if I can get pointed in the right direction, I can get going.  Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with a lot of the terms used in recording software, which has made getting help difficult for everyone.

I'm going to get the book that was recommended.  I am going to learn to use the software, and I'm going to learn to use it well.  I had given up, but then I made a commitment to do some recording.  Everyone I talked to told me to get GarageBand, but I wanted to give Sonar another shot.  I think I'm on the right track now.


Sonar has a good workflow once you start figuring it out, starts to make more sense the more you use it but for someone new there's not much in the way of up to date tutorials to cover the basics. Imo I think cakewalk should provide more tutorials for people just a getting started like other daw makers do.
#26
GjB
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/19 07:14:42 (permalink)
MerlinSuderman
..The tutorials with the program seemed geared to the latest features in editing and made the assumption that any user was already familiar with basic functions.

 
I found that Groove 3 Sonar Explained is a really good video tutorial course to have, keep and refer to.
post edited by GjB - 2017/09/19 11:21:01

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mettelus
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/19 09:05:38 (permalink)
Based on the OP's second post, it seems the original issue was the piano MIDI part was being sent out "omni" so the keyboard was seeing those coming in and triggering drums. Isolating MIDI parts is often easiest via discrete Channels, so the inputs and outputs map correctly. TTS-1 is a good option for doing this since it will accommodate all 16 channels (just set each MIDI output channel discretely into TTS-1). When working with a hardware synth, that may be simplest so you do not need to adjust channels on the keyboard itself (let SONAR and TTS-1 do the grunt work for you).

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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/19 11:11:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/09/19 15:32:44
If I understand this correctly you are recording a multitimbral synth?

No one seems to have mentioned that you should send a local off to the synth so that only those MIDI messages sent by SONAR trigger the synth.  What you describe sounds to me like Local is still on.

Local off is normally a sysex message that turns of the keyboard messages to the synth sound engine ensuring only the DAW MIDI sounds the engine.

Of course I could have completely miss read this and be wrong, would not be the first or last time.

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#29
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Re: New (and rather disgusted) User 2017/09/19 14:25:29 (permalink)
If you read my posts I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole and recommend the OP learn about soft synths first,,, then if they still want the sounds from outboard gear they can figure that more complex part out later.  There's probably no reason to use the keyboard anyways. 

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