New to X3, disappointing colour customisation limitations!

Hi
 
I've just upgraded from X2 to X3. Was really looking forward to being able to colourise the strips to help manage my large projects. As usual with the colour preferences dialog Cakewalk have left out essential components that I can't control. And in fact my ability to specify my track, and in particular clip colours, has been reduced.
 
Here are my issues. I do want to colourise my strips. However, when I do, the colour I chose also gets applied to the clip contents. Now I can agree that there should be correlation between the clip colours and the strip colours, that makes sense, so I sort of understand why they might have given us only one option that controls both. However, this is causing me great problems and frustration.
 
Firstly, I have always had a preference for a dark UI. It totally pi**ed me off when I upgraded from X1 to X2 and lost my nice dark grey console and was forced to have a pale grey one and no customisation option to do anything about it. So I was of course looking forward to X3's strip colour customisation. However, when you chose a colour for your tracks now, the strips don't get that colour. They get a pale washed out version. I suppose I shall have to put up with that. I want my drum track strips to be grey but everything else get various colours. However the grey strips I get are too pale for my liking, so I chose to go into the colour pallette to specify a colour of my choosing. The only way to get those strips to be a darker grey was to chose the colour black. The strips are now a darker grey, not as dark as I would like, but acceptable. However, now my clip contents are black. So I have black waveforms on dark grey backgounds in my clips. Totally unusable. It would appear that if I want to colourise my track strips, not only do I not get to specify a different colour, or shade of that colour, for my clip contents; but I don't get any say whatsoever for the colour of my clip backgrounds. The clip backgrounds have to be dark grey it would appear. They have removed "clip background colour" from the preferences dialog. WHY?!!!!
 
In the Colour Preferences dialog in X2 you can specify "Clip Background Color" for tracks 1-10, etc. Now in X3 those options have been removed. You have no say at all over your clip background colour. In the dialog the only clip background colours you can specify are for "Clip Background (Selected), Folder Clip Background, Ghosted Clip Background, Record Preview Clip Background, and Region FX Clip Background". Why not good old basic "clip background"? This, Cakewalk, is ridiculous!! The only way I can have my clips to be the colour I want is to disable Track Colours. I can't have both colour coded strips and clip colours of my choosing. 
 
Oh no, Wait! I can have my cake and eat it!. If I want to specify the colours of my clips I can only do so after the fact. i.e. once I have recorded some clips I can select them, and then in the Inspector under the Clip tab I can uncheck the Use Track Color box and then specify foreground and background. But of course any future clips I record on that track will adopt the colours I don't want and I'll have to select them again and do the same each time. This is a truly awful way of working and a backwards step in productivity. 
 
Back on the subject of the strip colours. Like I say I would prefer darker coloured strips than I get with the current implementation. I suppose this is a slightly more petty gripe. Let's say I chose blue for my track colour. What I get is a washed out, almost pale lilac colour for my strip. So I think to myself "can I make it darker". The answer is not really. The darker the custom colour you chose the less colourful, in fact greyer, the strip becomes. Now the fact that Cakewalk have gone for a more pastel, shall we say, shade of the colour for the strips is possibly a good thing. I agree the console would look terrible if all the strips were bright garish colours, but could I not have lets say a slider for the darkness of the shade. I suppose I shall live with this aspect of the problem. However the other issue is one that definitely needs addressing. i.e. uncoupling the strip and clip colours.
 
Here is my suggestion. In the Inspector you can only make changes in the Clip tab if there is at least one clip selected. If no clips are selected you cannot uncheck, for example, the Use Track Colors box. How about Cakewalk give us more options under the Track tab of the Inspector. At the moment you have only one Colour option in there. It is called 'Color' and this is the one that determines both clip foreground colour and strip colour. How about they give us three options in there. Strip Colour, Clip Foreground, and Clip Background. As I said earlier, the clip foreground colour could still be tied to the strip colour, maybe make the Foreground colour be a slider allowing us to chose the shade based on the colour we chose for the strips. That way if I wanted to make my strips darker and clip foreground lighter I could. 
 
Anyway, this is in danger of becoming an essay. Please someone at Cakewalk give us proper customisation and not a halfway house where you take away functionality. 
 
Am I being unreasonable. Someone shout me down and tell me to get a life! 

1. If color customization is so important for you, you could have tried the demo first (it's been available for a few months).

2. This is a peer-to-peer forum so you can't expect CW to reply.

3. There's a feature request form you can submit to CW.

For more complete color customization consider Duckbar available from http://www.sonarmods.com/forum/index.php (Registration required to download)

Have to agree that the implementation is very disappointing. I was so looking forward to being able to have the dark console view that I had in 8.5 again, but no...........when exactly did black come to mean a slightly darker shade of pale grey?  Nobody told me this had happened. The way that new clips override the changes you have made to clip colours is crazy too. I can't think of a reason why I would ever want mutliple colour clips in the same track.
 

Well, you know what they say about opinions, and mine are right there with everyone else.    
 
I'm mostly with Jlien in the overall scheme of things.   I am very glad that CW introduced track/console strip coloring in X3, and I very much like the method they chose to implement it - it's very logical to me.   I'm also somewhat unaffected by the clip coloring which I fully realize is a personal thing. 
 
The only area where I'd personally like to see a change is one that was mentioned above - the ability to have truly dark track/console strips.  It's unfortunate that we currently get sort of dark grey strips with black clips.  Nothing resembling a critical issue for me, but not what I'd really like to see.     Oh.... and yes, the ability to set default clip colors (separate from strips) would obviously be beneficial.  Particularly for darkish grey strips + black clips.   
 

sharke
Having to specify clip background color per clip is totally lame.

 
Indeed, it would be if that was the way it worked. But you can specify background (and/or foreground) color for an individual clip, selected clips, or the entire track. To do the entire track:
 
1. In track view, click the Track number in the track header. This selects all the track's clips.
2. Choose the Inspector's Clip tab.
3. Choose your background and/or foreground color.
 
If only certain clips are selected, only those clips will be colored.

rbowser
What do you guys do with the automation envelopes which are dark against the dark clips?  They're really hard to see until you click Automation in the track header [snip] I looked for a way to change the color of those envelopes when they're not in focus, but couldn't find a choice for that.
 
Randy B.

I'm pretty sure that was a conscious design decision due to the complaints from people who used lots of automation, and found it difficult to see what was going on, let alone adjust the envelopes without adjusting other envelopes. Hence the automation edit filter, to highlight a particular automation curve and lock editing to it (as well as automation lanes, so you could edit clips and edit automation at the same time).
 
As you noted you can still see envelopes without automation selected in the edit filter, but they envelopes are dark, more for reference, and difficult to see against dark clip colors.
 
I think your idea of being able to enable or disable envelope colors on the main clip view when not in focus is probably the best way to solve three distinct use cases:
 

• Being able to see and lock to an individual type of automation (edit filter)
• Having a reference that doesn't distract from clip editing (dark reference automation curves)
• Having a reference that shows all the envelopes so you can see the relationship among them, even when not in focus (your suggestion for enabling colors)

 
I recommend putting in a feature request if this is something you think would be really useful to a broad base of users.

gmp
 
I'm also disappointed in the limitations with color customization. I've used Sonar for long before they even called it Sonar. Years ago they had about 30 or more color presets that you could try until you found what you wanted. It seems to me that at minimum there should be some user color files that we could upload and everyone could download and try. X1 was far better than X3 in the clip pane as far as color options.

It does really come down to how you do things, but X1 &2 looked pretty stark (if not ugly) to anyone who was used to their layouts in 8.5.   I still use Duckbar, but as to X3 I don't think the limitations are that bad, at least for me, so I'm happy now.
 
But I started pretty early with CW too, and I miss some of the dramatic contrasts I was used to.
 
 
 
 
    

Jlien X

sharke
Having to specify clip background color per clip is totally lame.

 
The option to specify the default clip background color for the track shouldn't have been removed (I personally don't need it, though).
 

sharke
I can't imagine anyone wanting different colored clips in the same track. I think all clip backgrounds should be the same as the track color by default, with the option to change that per track.
As much as I think Sonar looks head and shoulders above other DAWs in many ways (especially the console view with the ProChannel), I do feel a little jealous when I see the clip panes of DAW's like ProTools, Abelton and Cubase. If the color customization of tracks is an organizational advantage (which it is otherwise they wouldn't have implemented it) then surely the same applies to the clips pane. Having all clip backgrounds the same as the track colors (or whatever color you like) would be an enormous visual help for me and I'm sure lots of others. I really don't know why they took this out in X3. I'm not about to start coloring clip backgrounds individually, it's just too much of a hassle.

 
I have to disagree. I think the new implementation in X3 is VERY logical and more beneficial (at least for users like me who mostly record MIDI). First, it's very likely that users color-code track strips by instrument type. For example, I use red for all guitar tracks, green for the bass, etc. This easily tells you which instrument you're are editing, because the colored track strips are always visible in the Track view. How about when you do multi-track editing in the Piano Roll view? Wouldn't you want the colors of the note events match those of the instrument colors you specified in the Track view? This is why it's very logical to link the colors between the track strip, clip foreground and the note events. In addition, do you use linked clips? I use a LOT. I have several different groups of linked clips in a single track and the easiest and most efficient way to distinguish between the groups are to give each group a different clip background color. And the clips with the default black color indicate that they are not linked to any clip in the track. This is why I think it makes sense to adopt black for a default clip background color. The screenshot below explains everything.

 
PT, Live and Cubase might be able to the same thing (I know S1 and DP can't), but at least in X3 it only takes two clicks to change the color of the strip, clip foreground and note events at once, and this is probably one of my top 5 reasons I want to keep using Sonar as my main DAW.

Good suggestions. I'm going to look into your methods more and see what I can do also. You make some good points. Thanks for sharing them.

My biggest color issue is..... When a track is selected, the entire header should change color, not just the little background section behind the track name. This was the case up through 8.5. From a distance, when selecting a track by touching a fader on my control surface, it's very difficult to see.

My experience is that even after I select all the clips in the track and change their colors, the next clip I record requires the same selecting of the clip and changing the colors to match the ones previously set and on and on.  That takes a lot of time.
 
The value of X3 exceeds this nuisance factor.  However, it would be nice if it can be set so that all future clips in a track will have a particular background and foreground, even the next ones on the track being recorded.
 
THANKS for considering this.   This is not a deal breaker - just a friendly request.
 
 

sharke

Jlien X

sharke
Having to specify clip background color per clip is totally lame.

 
The option to specify the default clip background color for the track shouldn't have been removed (I personally don't need it, though).
 

sharke
I can't imagine anyone wanting different colored clips in the same track. I think all clip backgrounds should be the same as the track color by default, with the option to change that per track.
As much as I think Sonar looks head and shoulders above other DAWs in many ways (especially the console view with the ProChannel), I do feel a little jealous when I see the clip panes of DAW's like ProTools, Abelton and Cubase. If the color customization of tracks is an organizational advantage (which it is otherwise they wouldn't have implemented it) then surely the same applies to the clips pane. Having all clip backgrounds the same as the track colors (or whatever color you like) would be an enormous visual help for me and I'm sure lots of others. I really don't know why they took this out in X3. I'm not about to start coloring clip backgrounds individually, it's just too much of a hassle.

 
I have to disagree. I think the new implementation in X3 is VERY logical and more beneficial (at least for users like me who mostly record MIDI). First, it's very likely that users color-code track strips by instrument type. For example, I use red for all guitar tracks, green for the bass, etc. This easily tells you which instrument you're are editing, because the colored track strips are always visible in the Track view. How about when you do multi-track editing in the Piano Roll view? Wouldn't you want the colors of the note events match those of the instrument colors you specified in the Track view? This is why it's very logical to link the colors between the track strip, clip foreground and the note events. In addition, do you use linked clips? I use a LOT. I have several different groups of linked clips in a single track and the easiest and most efficient way to distinguish between the groups are to give each group a different clip background color. And the clips with the default black color indicate that they are not linked to any clip in the track. This is why I think it makes sense to adopt black for a default clip background color. The screenshot below explains everything.

 
PT, Live and Cubase might be able to the same thing (I know S1 and DP can't), but at least in X3 it only takes two clicks to change the color of the strip, clip foreground and note events at once, and this is probably one of my top 5 reasons I want to keep using Sonar as my main DAW.

Ideally though it should be up to the user to customize their DAW colors to suit their workflow. For instance: yes I do group tracks by color. I might for instance set all synth tracks to red. But the logic behind the colors I use in the tracks pane may well be different to the logic behind the colors I want for track contents (i.e. MIDI notes). For instance, making all my synth tracks red in the tracks pane and the console helps me when I'm mixing. It gives me an overview of the project and groups related tracks. But do I want all of those synth tracks to have the same color notes in the PRV? Personally no - if I'm editing 3 interweaving synth parts in the PRV simultaneously for example, I would much prefer if the notes were different colors so I can see what's what at a glance.
 
But I would also like the option to link clip backgrounds to the track color. Again, that helps me get an overview of the project when looking at the clips pane. When all the clip backgrounds are the same dark grey color, I'm getting less visual feedback about the overall shape and arrangement of my project.
 
You hit the nail on the head when you said you like unlinked clips to remain black. That's something which suits your workflow. So surely, the best of both worlds would be the ability to specify a default color for clips, to "follow track colors," or on another level, to set colors for individual clips which override all of the above.  

deswind
My experience is that even after I select all the clips in the track and change their colors, the next clip I record requires the same selecting of the clip and changing the colors to match the ones previously set and on and on.  That takes a lot of time.
 
The value of X3 exceeds this nuisance factor.  However, it would be nice if it can be set so that all future clips in a track will have a particular background and foreground, even the next ones on the track being recorded.
 
THANKS for considering this.   This is not a deal breaker - just a friendly request.
 
 

After seeing Jlien X's post. I went ahead and changed my template and now it color coded. I have a very large template with lots of tracks and just delete ones I'm not going to use. So I already have vocal tracks, guitar tracks, piano tracks,, drum tracks, etc all there before i record anything. Wouldn't that solve your problem?

sharke
 
The problem of having to change clip background colors on a per-clip basis? Unfortunately not

You must have missed post #11. To recap:
 
You can specify background (and/or foreground) color for an individual clip, selected clips, or the entire track. To colorize all clips in the entire track:
 
1. In track view, click the Track number in the track header. This selects all the track's clips.
2. Choose the Inspector's Clip tab.
3. Choose your background and/or foreground color.
 
If only certain clips are selected, only those clips will be colored.

I still don't get the 50 shades of grey concept. Cakewalk moved forward as a program but went way backwards as a GUI.
 
8.5, last of the best GUI.

@sharke:
As I said in my previous post, I also think the option to specify a default clip background color for the track shouldn't have removed. So, as for the default black clip background color, I only wanted to mean that if we are not allowed to specify a default clip background color, black makes sense to me because Sonar offers the ability to group clips and its a MIDI user-friendly daw and the users are most likely to give different background colors to different linked groups in the track to distinguish between them (if there's a better way, I'd like to know that).

As for changing foreground/background clip colors using the Clip Properties Inspector, there are currently two issues:

1. If you select a clip with, say, a blue background and a light blue foreground and another clip that has, say, a green background and a light green foreground and then change the foreground or background color of the clips, the one you didn't choose (foreground or background) also changes (the foreground or background color of one of the clips overwrites that of the other clip). This bug has been confirmed by CW.

2. Even if you change the foreground color of the clip (using the Clip Properties Inspector) in the TV, the notes in the clip still indicate the TRACK color in the PRV.

So, if #2 is a bug, you might want to report it to CW and have it fixed so that you can give five different colors to the five synths in the PRV. I didn't report it because if issue #1 fails to get fixed and issue #2 get fixed, my PRV for multi track editing could get disastrous lol.