Markubl2
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Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
Simple setup
1. I create a midi track and put some data into it. Just route to my FA08 for now.
2. I create an instrument (say, Rapture Pro) and then route the midi to that track
3. If I route the midi back (from Rapture to the FA), and want to delete the instrument track (Rapture), the original midi track is deleted as well.
I don't understand this. Why would the midi track get deleted when it is not highlighted. Are the "tied together" somehow?
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scook
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/17 18:27:51
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☼ Best Answerby Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk] 2017/10/04 02:36:07
There is an option in the "Delete Soft Synth" dialog to "Delete associated tracks." This is enabled by default. Because the MIDI track is routed to the synth it is an associated track. If you are using an instrument track, the MIDI data should go in that track and not a separate MIDI track. If you wish to change the synth in the track use the " Replace Synth" (note: in addition to the synth menu, this is an option in the track context menus too). If you prefer to use separate MIDI tracks consider using audio tracks instead of instrument tracks for synth playback.
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Markubl2
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/17 18:35:57
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Thank you.
I had been just right clicking on the track and selecting delete track (I am not aware where the "Delete Soft Synth" dialog is). In playing around, I did notice that if I highlight just the number of the track, and can delete it successfully there without deleting the midi track.
I am aware of the replace synth dialog, but I am confused about the sentence "consider using audio tracks instead of instrument tracks for synth playback" I thought that softsynths only played midi data. I created an audio track, but cannot seem to route that to a VSTi.
I got down this rabbit hole as I have started the Groove 3 series on Sonar. I need to start learning this and stop buying synths.
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scook
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/17 18:47:02
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☄ Helpfulby Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk] 2017/10/04 02:36:24
An instrument track is a hybrid track containing both a MIDI tack and an audio track. In fact, there is an option to split instrument tracks in the instrument track context menu. When split the instrument track is broken out into its constituent MIDI and audio tracks. There is also an option to create instrument tracks where a synth uses one MIDI track and one audio track.
There are a variety of ways to add synths to a project. In order to have a complete routing for a synth is must either use an instrument track or at least one MIDI track and one audio track. Note: some synths may use multiple MIDI and audio tracks.
As mentioned above when using an instrument track, typically the MIDI data goes in the instrument track. This works because an instrument track exposes the underlying MIDI track input. The instrument track also automatically handles the synth routing to the underlying audio track.
Most soft synth do use MIDI data. That is why there must be an instrument or MIDI track - to pass MIDI data to the synth. The audio generated by the synth may either be played back using audio track portion of the instrument track or a separate audio track.
Some prefer to work only with MIDI/audio tracks. When working with synths with multiple I/Os this is usually the best approach. When the synth is a simple one with a single stereo out, an instrument track is a convenient choice.
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scook
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/17 18:59:00
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☄ Helpfulby Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk] 2017/10/04 02:36:33
BTW, you should get in the habit of using a master bus to route to your interface and have all the instrument and audio tracks routed to the master bus. This is how the basic template that ships with SONAR is configured. It can save a lot of grief down the road if you get in this habit now.
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bitflipper
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/17 19:38:04
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scook
Some prefer to work only with MIDI/audio tracks. When working with synths with multiple I/Os this is usually the best approach. When the synth is a simple one with a single stereo out, an instrument track is a convenient choice.
What Steve means by "some" is: pretty much everyone who's serious about MIDI composition. Do yourself a favor and forget Instrument Tracks exist. It's a feature that was put in to appease users who came from simpler DAWs and missed the convenience.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Brando
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/17 19:57:20
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I think Scook's description is right on, IMO. They are great for single out synths. I use them all the time and they work well if you're aware of their foibles.
Brando
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bvideo
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/17 21:41:46
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As I understand the original question, the first MIDI track was deleted even though it is no longer associated with the softsynth. Since that track was not highlighted, is no longer routed to the synth (and was not even originally part of an instrument track), sounds to me like it shouldn't be deleted.
Everybody is right about the error-prone or confusing nature of instrument tracks, especially when there is some intention to have multiple MIDI tracks sending. But Sonar actually lets us route additional MIDI tracks to the softsynth of an instrument track, and it seems to work OK, including: when deleting the synth with the delete associated tracks option, the extra tracks are deleted.
But I did try to reproduce the OP procedure as I understood it, and could not find any scenario that deleted a track as described in the OP.
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Markubl2
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/17 21:57:54
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Thank you all for the replies and the attempts to educate. I know what Midi is, and I know what audio is, but I guess I am just confused now on what an instrument track is (FWIW, I also have no idea what a bus is - I know there is a master, metronome, and a preview on these test projects I'm learning about). However, as I said, I am new (and have zero background in recording), so I will learn in time. I'm watching each of these Groove 3 videos a few times while playing around in SPLAT - it is the best way for me to learn. This one on the synth rack just prompted many questions for me.
So, if I am to learn the correct way, what should I do if I want to add a track for Kontakt, Rapture Pro, Synthmaster, etc. I have been just adding a simple instrument track, but that does not sound like the correct method.
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bvideo
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/17 22:14:03
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☄ Helpfulby Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk] 2017/10/04 02:37:56
My FWIW opinion is there is nothing largely wrong with an instrument track, unless you intend to send multiple MIDI tracks to the one synth. There are little things, such as half of the widgets for MIDI and audio tracks are not exposed until you separate the instrument track into its underlying audio & midi component tracks. And automation becomes confusing: would you like to automate the MIDI or the audio? MIDI automation seems to be inaccessible with an instrument track. Actually, maybe my opinion just changed...  .
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Jesse G
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/17 22:48:16
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☄ Helpfulby Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk] 2017/10/04 02:38:05
Peace,Jesse G.  A fisher of men <>< ==============================Cakewalk and I are going places together!
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Cactus Music
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 03:25:29
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To me it's always been pretty straight forward. As Bitflipper says- A midi track is a midi track and an audio track is an audio track, Tossing a 3rd option just confuses the issue.
You have a track of midi data and that goes to a soft synth. You can change which soft synth till the cows come home or duplicate the midi 100 times and send it to 100 soft synths etc.
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Markubl2
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 16:38:00
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Thank you Jesse for those links. I had read through the Insert Soft Synth Options, but the Instrument Routing In Sonar was especially helpful.
So, if I understand correctly. To do this right (or what is suggested here):
1. I would create a Midi track
2. I would then create a simple instrument track for a VSTi, and use this as a routing destination from the Midi?
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Cactus Music
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 18:24:33
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Actually you insert a MIDI track to record or create your data that will drive the soft synth.
You then insert a soft synth and you can choose single or multi outputs. You do not have to choose the instrument track at all. I never do.
Then you point the midi tracks output at the soft synth. done.
To me the beauty of doing it this way means I can insert a few different soft synths and then try them on the fly by changing the midi tracks output as the song is playing.
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Markubl2
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 19:00:19
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I still must be missing something. I insert a synth into the synth rack, and if I choose one of the audio outputs, it automatically creates a track. How is that different than simply creating an instrument track?
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scook
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 19:05:32
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husker
1. I would create a Midi track
2. I would then create a simple instrument track for a VSTi, and use this as a routing destination from the Midi?
This is not the usual way of using SONAR. When creating a MIDI track it is customary to create audio tracks for the synth output. This may be done at the same time when using the "Insert Soft Synth Options" dialog or clicking the "Split Instrument Track" option in the advanced section of the Instrument tab of the Add Track dialog. When using an instrument track, the MIDI is usually recorded in the instrument track. This is because an instrument track is actually two tracks in one. The input side of the MIDI track and the output side of the audio track are exposed in an instrument track.
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bitflipper
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 19:19:29
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This isn't the only way to do it, but my usual method is to open the browser window and select a synth, e.g. Kontakt, from there by dragging it over into a blank space in the Track View.
SONAR then pops up an options dialog. Un-check "Simple Instrument Track", and check both "MIDI Source" and "First Synth Audio Output". (Once you've (un)checked these options, SONAR will remember your preferences from then on, so all you'll have to do is click OK every time you add a synth to a project.) At this point, you have loaded the synth and created associated MIDI and audio tracks with just two mouse clicks.
If you subsequently decide to layer a second synth using the same MIDI data, right click on the existing MIDI track and select "Clone Track". In that dialog, check both "Clone Events" and "Link to Original Clip". This will create a slave track that will take its MIDI input from the original MIDI track. Then insert the second synth - but you only need to create an audio track for it, since you'll be routing the newly-created MIDI slave track to its input.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Markubl2
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 19:24:05
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I guess I am trying to determine what I "should" be doing. I have been creating simple instrument tracks, and that has worked, but I guess I'm supposed to do something different. Either I'm getting conflicting information here, or I am overwhelmingly confused. Probably the latter.
I start with a blank project with no tracks. Then I do this?
Insert a softsynth with the following options: Midi Source, Synth Track Folder, and First Synth Audio Output.
Is that correct?
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Zargg
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 19:30:38
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husker
I guess I am trying to determine what I "should" be doing. I have been creating simple instrument tracks, and that has worked, but I guess I'm supposed to do something different. Either I'm getting conflicting information here, or I am overwhelmingly confused. Probably the latter.
I start with a blank project with no tracks. Then I do this?
Insert a softsynth with the following options: Midi Source, Synth Track Folder, and First Synth Audio Output.
Is that correct?
You can put MIDI into a Simple Instrument Track (SIT). You do not have to use separate MIDI and Audio tracks. If SIT works for you, use them until you need more advanced routing(s). All the best.
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Markubl2
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 19:33:23
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Bit, I think we posted at the same time. I think I understand now what I should be doing, now I just need to understand how this is better than just a simple instrument track.
I think I just need to stop for awhile and do something else. :) My problem is that I want to understand everything, right now. That simply isn't the case with DAWs.
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scook
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 19:45:15
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husker
I guess I am trying to determine what I "should" be doing.
Yes, that will work. As to what you "should" do just know there are basically two ways to use synths in SONAR 1. MIDI+Audio tracks 2. Instrument tracks Ultimately they are the same thing with a different presentation in the DAW. Instrument track are fine when all that is needed is a synth driven by a single MIDI stream and a stereo audio output. When using a synth with multiple inputs or outputs the MIDI+Audio track approach is the norm. MIDI+Audio method predates instrument tracks in SONAR but both produce the same result. Any time a synth has a single MIDI track and a single Audio track, it may be converted to an instrument track using the synth rack and track context menu. Instrument track may be broken out into its MIDI and Audio tracks by using the same menu using the "Split Instrument Track" option.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 19:47:44
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The problem I see is you got some of us saying " don't use a simple instrument track" and others say " yes use one."
Sorry that's bound to happen on a user forum. As always there is many way's to do the same task with Sonar and you will eventually find the way that works best for you.
Bit just described a way to insert a new soft synth that I was totally unaware of as example.
I always used the synth rack, but as you see both will open that same dialog and Sonar is a bit complicated in that manner..
And in the end the synth will show as an Audio track and can be treated as such.
It's seems overly complicated, but boy,, it took me 2 days to figure this same action out in Cubase. They don't even have the option for pure midi tracks, it's always in a synth track.
I think your very close to getting it.
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scook
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 19:58:00
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Whether one chooses to use instrument tracks or not, I maintain it helps to understand what they are and how they work. This bitflipper
What Steve means by "some" is: pretty much everyone who's serious about MIDI composition.
is a peculiar statement and not what I wrote or meant. To suggest one method is more "serious" than another is silly.
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abacab
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/18 20:09:55
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Think of it this way, using your external hardware synth as an analogy. You have a Roland FA08.
If you wanted a MIDI track to record the MIDI data on, you would create a MIDI track in Sonar and route it to/from your Roland.
If you wanted to monitor or record the Roland audio output in Sonar, you would need to route the audio out of the Roland to an audio track in Sonar.
Using a virtual synth in the Sonar Synth Rack has the same requirements, except that it is virtual.
The MIDI track stores the MIDI data and routing info related to MIDI, and the audio track is where the virtual synth sends its audio output.
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Joe_A
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/19 15:37:26
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All this reminds me that one day I'll have to dive deeper into soft synths and midi.
😃
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chuckebaby
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/19 16:22:09
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Joe_A
All this reminds me that one day I'll have to dive deeper into soft synths and midi.
😃
When I first dove in to the midi pool it was very confusing. Although I had used midi, drum machines with a synchronizer for years back in the analog days, it still took time to understand basic fundamentals. However now when I look back on it, it seems like I made it more complicated than it needed to be. A midi track triggers a soft synth with its midi data. A Simple instrument track (SIT) is a combined midi/soft synth track all in one track. the PRV might be the greatest challenge of all but it is pretty easy to pick up basic moves using the smart tool. Here's a fairly easy way for a few ways to use midi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juIu9Rlt6v8
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Markubl2
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/19 16:27:26
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Thank you all for the replies and education. After playing around with this and reading through the documentation, I have a better understanding of all of this.
I think the basis for splitting out the tracks is that it gives more routing flexibility.
One final question - I know I have have multiple midi tracks route to the same synth, but is it possible to have the same midi track route to multiple synths? It looks as if one can only choose one destination per midi track.
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bitflipper
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/19 16:46:49
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husker
...is it possible to have the same midi track route to multiple synths? It looks as if one can only choose one destination per midi track.
Some DAWs let you do that, SONAR does not. However, the method SONAR employs for achieving this is actually superior than, say, having an "Add MIDI output" option like you can do with aux sends for audio. Linked MIDI tracks are a better solution because, well, rather than just getting a virtual internal connection, you actually get a separate track that you can do more with. For example, you can insert MIDI plugins into the slaved track. It also makes it easier to swap out alternative synths for experimentation. Each linked track can be separately muted and soloed. Each linked track can have its own MIDI channel. There is no limit to how many linked tracks you can create.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Markubl2
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/19 17:51:55
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Thank you. I can see how that would be better. I'll look into how to link midi tracks.
Again, thank you to all for your help.
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scook
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Re: Newbie Question - Cannot Understand Why a Track Deletes
2017/09/19 18:44:28
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The Clone Track(s) dialog has an option to "Link to Original Clip(s)." In addition to being the the Track View Tracks menu, this function is available in the context menu for each track. Use the clone function on audio and MIDI tracks as needed. DO NOT clone instrument tracks. Link clips is in Paste Special too.
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