No love for P5 from Cakewalk

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mumpcake
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2008/10/03 18:51:21 (permalink)

No love for P5 from Cakewalk

SonarVStudio announced at AES.
http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=7327

The interviewer is asking if you can use this with other sequencers. Brandon says you can, but in describing how it is optimized for Sonar, says something to the effect that no other product other than Sonar has ACT. ACT was added to P5 in 2.5.
#1

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    BremenCole
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/03 21:11:44 (permalink)
    This is all so redundant..... The fat lady sang months ago...... let's move on......

    So Sonar 8 is shipping, I really wish they would have the demo up.... I am at least somewhat interested in trying it. I really like Cubase, but if (please dear GOD) I could get away from the dongle...... anyway, I can get Sonar Studio for $99 so I am truly interested in trying it.......

    I have a HUGE OPEN MIND here Cakewalk.... post the demo, it's crunch time!

    And, wow, can you believe the serial number issue with those that order Sonar 8 from the Cake store.... wow...... what a screw up...... but, it seems the most obvious things can get past corporate testers.....

    Just don't get X1 
    #2
    DayDrumFour
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/03 21:56:23 (permalink)
    Everything without the name "Sonar" in it seems in limbo. Project5, Kinetic2, Guitar Tracks. Also, ACT amazingly has no update. Keep in mind that they're hiring a Product Manager too. With the important products already shipped, what's the Manager got left to do?

    My guess is the official yay or nay comes from that person.



    I have authentic analog drum machine samples.
    #3
    Russell.Whaley
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/04 18:07:00 (permalink)
    Taking a break from Sunday prep here...

    Definite limbo territory here. As most anyone who reads here regularly knows, I am a Cakewalk fan, with their products at the front of the line amongst my "go-to" apps for music creation and production. So, though this is preachy, I hope that the Cake folk who do monitor this forum will take it in the spirit that it is intended -- the hope that, if P5 is indeed discontinued (as many here have concluded), the company will at least have the good grace to let us know about it directly, instead of simply allowing the abyss of unknowing to swallow us up.

    In addition to making annoying avatars , I like to watch trends (economic, social, musical). After watching Cakewalk in the months following their "nuptials" with Roland, I think that we're only seeing the beginning of a major shift in the focus of CBR (Cakewalk by Roland) as a company, particular now that the Bakers are but a part of the Roland Empire.

    It seems that in the current tech economy, a company can be successful in two primary ways: either as a niche-market company that offers well something that larger companies don't find desirable and thus ignore OR become a market-dominating behemoth such as Micro$oft that has its fingers in everything. While there once was a middle ground where you could be a bit of each, the last decade of corporate evolution has virtually eliminated the middle ground, thus making it a "niche or mammoth" proposition with no where else to find success.

    In the music tech industry, the home-studio revolution wave has crested, and now what was a revolution is becoming an institution. A lot of people have become settled with their favorite DAW software, hardware, PC/Mac machine, and a few add-ons. The market is saturated, and slowing down.

    It costs a lot of money and effort to be an "all things to all musicians" company, and in a market where a tighter focus is a must, the wider product base will mean that you'll gradually fade away for lack of staying power. Now that Cakewalk by Roland (CBR) are maturing into an institution, to hold and increase market share, they're going to have to surrender to the "eat or be eaten" nature of the beast and tighten their focus down. Anything that does not increase market share will be gone, in short order.

    Now that the home studio market is saturated, the next "hill to conquer" will be the project/semi-pro studio that Digidesign has had a good hook into for quite a while. This latest hardware/software offering indicates that CBR have decided to make their bid for this niche of the market. My take is that CBR are going to put the majority of their resources into taking on Pro Tools and slough off anything that doesn't have the wherewithal to be a solid competitor on its own merits. If you look at the product forums that rarely if ever see the presence or interaction of Cakewalk personnel, you'll quickly know what products are being sloughed off!

    P5, which is a pretty neat product, unfortunately doesn't have enough market clout to remain viable. It had/has great potential to be a serious competitor to Live, but it's my guess that Live already had enough of the market locked up that Cake couldn't get enough traction to justify further development. Further shifts and developments in the DAW market dictated that a change of course was needed, and that has led us to where we are today. The low- to non-performers (P5, Sonar HS and HSXL, Guitar Tracks, etc.) are being let go in favor of making Sonar and Sonar-integrating hardware solutions a market dominator. So, here we are.

    So where am I going with this? Just a few predictions, based upon observed behavior of CBR and the music tech market in general:


    • We will see a few more P5-like features appear in the next two to three releases of Sonar.
    • Cakewalk by Roland will have an increasing focus on making Sonar and Sonar-integrating hardware a market dominator, and it will become "the" Cakewalk product of note, while all others (except Sonar LE, because it is an effective "tool of introduction") will gradually fade away, or maybe even mercifully be properly discontinued as the Cakewalk by Roland product focus solidifies.
    • The line of Cakewalk soft synths will decline to just Rapture and a new offering in the next couple of years, while Dimension Pro will follow the decline of P5, Sonar HS, and so on, because it is by now "old news," though still great software.



    The sad thing is (and I hope that the hall monitors will take note of this and communicate it to the people who CAN make a difference), given the regrettable lack of class (and manners) so rampant in corporate culture today, loyal customers who invested in products that didn't get continued will very likely not be shown the courtesy of being notified that their product is being/will be discontinued.

    Come on, even Microsoft put up a web page noting that their Digital Image line of products was discontinued.

    End of rant, carry on, and thank you for listening.

    Russ

    post edited by Russell.Whaley - 2008/10/04 18:10:29




    #4
    rabeach
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/04 19:22:55 (permalink)
    dinosaur no care about loyal livestock. dinosaur see many new volunteer livestock everyday. dinosaur must hide tracks from skilled trackers, else dinosaur mind become open book. :-)
    #5
    BremenCole
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/04 22:15:44 (permalink)
    Wow.... I bow before your vast knowledge, I mean really!

    P5 is dead, but your post made me re-think my opinion of why. Very well said, and perhaps very well right. You are one of those rare folks that can see the forest, I consider myself one of those as well, but perhaps I need to be taught by a master....perhaps you :)

    Market trends are indeed interesting, and worthy of more attention then they get in the consumer world. Most just don't get the business side of this, and of course that is the most important side. Only an idiot would continue to support a product that cost them money, instead of making a profit. Yes many in the "retail" arena will have loss leaders, but by definition they produce sales, and therefore make the company money. P5 is not a good loss leader. It failed on all fronts, and indeed created red ink.

    Anyway, point well taken, and excellent post.

    Just don't get X1 
    #6
    rabeach
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/04 22:34:55 (permalink)
    P5 is not a good loss leader. It failed on all fronts, and indeed created red ink.

    please provide source
    #7
    cb8rwh
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/05 02:27:39 (permalink)
    I agree with most of that Russell, but not where soft-synths are concerned. In Rene, they must have one of the leading synth writers out there - and unless they let him go, he will continue to write great soft synths.

    Just my thoughts.

    Rich
    #8
    Russell.Whaley
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/05 21:34:46 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: cb8rwh

    I agree with most of that Russell, but not where soft-synths are concerned. In Rene, they must have one of the leading synth writers out there - and unless they let him go, he will continue to write great soft synths.

    Just my thoughts.

    Rich


    Hi Rich,

    Good point - and I see that I wasn't entirely clear in what I was saying. You're absolutely right in that Rene is indeed one of the current grand masters of the synth world, and I can't image that CBR would simply cut him from the development lineup because it would deprive them of a very valuable source of growth.

    What I didn't express as clearly as I should have - I'm not expecting CBR to get out of the soft synth-making part of the business, I'm just expecting a very tight focus and a "lean" product line that has a fairly fast recycle rate. At least where I read, Rapture's had exellent press and been well-received. there's no reason to stop producing good soft synths. But, as fast as the market is moving these days with new products, anyone who wants to remain a competitor will have to keep developing new products. It's like the old saw in academia, "publish or perish."

    I see Dimension Pro as a fully-matured product. It has a lot going for it, but it's also been on the market for almost 3 years and products such as Kontakt have come out with features and capabilities that give DP a hard push to the rear. It's no longer revolutionary in nature.

    I think of Rapture as being within a year or two of this point. There are a lot of good synth-makers out there, putting out good products, so the biggest challenge is to keeping coming up with new theories and models of synthesis that will keep you ahead of the pack. The end result for you and me, the end-users, is that our favorite products won't have a long-term shelf life.

    Good point! Thanks for the dialogue.

    Cheers,

    Russ




    #9
    Russell.Whaley
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/05 22:15:21 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: BremenCole

    Wow.... I bow before your vast knowledge, I mean really!

    P5 is dead, but your post made me re-think my opinion of why. Very well said, and perhaps very well right. You are one of those rare folks that can see the forest, I consider myself one of those as well, but perhaps I need to be taught by a master....perhaps you :)


    Thanks for your kind words. I guess my "simple country parson" costume slipped for a moment...

    One of the things divinity school introduced me to was a discipline called systems theory - a tool for as you say, "seeing the forest" when you need to understand the wider picture and the people within it. It can highlight some fascinating things when you apply it to economics and social change and not just family systems.


    Market trends are indeed interesting, and worthy of more attention then they get in the consumer world. Most just don't get the business side of this, and of course that is the most important side. Only an idiot would continue to support a product that cost them money, instead of making a profit. Yes many in the "retail" arena will have loss leaders, but by definition they produce sales, and therefore make the company money. P5 is not a good loss leader. It failed on all fronts, and indeed created red ink.


    Another thing to watch is what effect the latest economic tremors in the US (and around the world) will have on the music software/hardware industry - CBR introduced a new big-ticket item just as our economy was shaking itself quite hard. Will the market they're trying to reach still buy, or will they retreat for a time in the face of restricted cash flow and less-favorable credit conditions?

    What do you think?

    Cheers,

    Russ




    #10
    kurrykid
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/05 23:54:12 (permalink)
    Good posts...It would seem like a company would not want to put "all their eggs in one basket". It would seem that you would like to have different product lines to bring in additional revenues. As much as they may not like it, not everyone is going to want to buy Sonar or the $4000 hardware to go with it. There are other people out there looking for a variety of tools.

    It may be a short sighted mistake to let them go.

    Just my thoughts.

    Dave
    #11
    Russell.Whaley
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/06 11:55:23 (permalink)
    I hear you and agree with what you're saying. Unfortunately, we're in a really reactive economy right now, and diversifying a product line will be seen as "spreading yourself too thin" by a lot of companies. Once things loosen up again (and they will, after a time), we'll see more venture-based activity.

    I do note than an upgrade for Sonar HS and HSXL is coming out late this week, a promising glimmer that some of the lower-end products will still be offered.

    That said, I'm still curious to see how this does vs. products like Audacity for free or Reaper for $50 (personal use license). They're not market-busters, but in a downsurge, they could be spoilers.

    At any rate, this is all enjoyable tea-leaf reading at best ... who knows what the market will do tomorrow?

    Russ




    #12
    DayDrumFour
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/06 18:22:54 (permalink)
    "Not putting all eggs in one basket" could be why SonarHS gets an upgrade.
    "spreading yourself too thin" could be why P5 gets the silent treatment.

    I have authentic analog drum machine samples.
    #13
    Russell.Whaley
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/06 20:43:23 (permalink)
    Not adding any more tea-leaf reading for the moment - just saying, "Thanks!" for one of the better conversations to grace this forum in a while.

    Cheers,

    Russ




    #14
    GrottoRob
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    RE: No love for P5 from Cakewalk 2008/10/06 21:29:06 (permalink)
    Stumbled in here and had a good read. Changed my avatar.

    Rob (HS)
    #15
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