No more studio for me (thanks to HP!)

Well, I decided to give up on recording. Ever since I've bought my HP computer, I haven't recorded anything anyway. First there were the terrible issues with my M-Audio Audiophile 2496, so I recently made the switch to an external interface, an Edirol FA-66. That one didn't work at first because HP refuses to use decent chipsets. Well, € 45 and a PCI 1394 controller later, there was sound!

Unfortunately the issues I had with the old M-Audio card were back also. That means flawless playback, until something moves on the screen. Scrolling with your mouse works just like a pitch-bend-wheel on a keyboard, and the simple tracking of Sonar already causes crackling sounds everywhere. Even with the screen turned off, this is the case. Doesn't matter where I placed the monitors, what cabling I used, ... it's a problem in the core of the system.

HP helpdesk hasn't been a great help either. About the "FA-66 not playing"-issues they suggested things like: "try to install the drivers" or even worse "try putting it in another PCI slot" (WTF???).

Anyway, it seems like my computer simply isn't ready for any audio-production at all. I'm a student without an income, so I have no other choice than to stop recording. I'm graduating from university college this year and I'll need a car to go to work, so it's simply impossible for me to buy a new PC. I guess I'll just sell all my gear and go record somewhere else. With a big thanks to HP for f***ing up bigtime. If I would've known they made such crappy products, I would never have invested in new interfaces, new cabling, new computerparts, ...

So if there's anything to learn from this: DO NOT BUY A HP COMPUTER, unless you're just using it as an expensive typewriter ...

Mine's a HP Pavilion a6000 series, desktop model.

Scrolling with your mouse works just like a pitch-bend-wheel on a keyboard

Sounds like an interrupt conflict. If you still have both interfaces installed (FA-66 + M-Audio Audiophile), disable one of them. You don't need two interfaces and there is a potential for conflicts between them. Choose which one you like best (my vote would be for the Edirol, for the better mic preamps) and remove/disable the other.

If the mouse-related problems persist, and you're using the M-Audio card, try moving it to a different PCI slot.

EDIT:

About the "FA-66 not playing"-issues they suggested things like: "try to install the drivers" or even worse "try putting it in another PCI slot" (WTF???).

What they meant was move the firewire interface to another slot, which of course is only possible if it's a discrete card rather than an integrated interface on the motherboard. Because IRQs are (usually) automatically assigned based on which PCI slot a card is plugged into, moving to another slot may change the IRQ for the FW interface and remove any conflict with the mouse or video adaptor.

This pursuit is not for everyone.

I had numerous problems with a HP a630n desktop when I tried to use Cakewalk-Sonar on it. Everything from the onboard audio not being recognized to numerous USB and background service conflicts. Most of the HP's just aren't designed to handle streaming ASIO and the locked up onboard Audio is not recognized by the high end Audio recording software. The WDM drivers that work for the HP do not work for most interfaces. I finally got Sonar 5 to work on the HP but I would have to reconfigure so many background services and features that it was a real PITA. If you're going to record get a dedicated DAW machine. Spare yourself the headaches.

ORIGINAL: Jessie Sammler

...If a DAW isn't working 100% perfectly, it's completely worthless, and you'd might as well be using it for web browsing and iTunes.

Yeah, exactly. And this is so easy to miss amidst all the hype and ad slogans that tell beginners how they can have a complete recording studio on their PC. You're typing a document, and the computer switches apps for some reason-- no big deal. You're browsing the web, and a page hangs-- nuisance, but no more. You're making Christmas cards and the mouse stops responding for a split-second-- who cares? Most of us never notice or think about it but this stuff happens all the time and it doesn't matter until it happens in the middle of recording, when it is no longer a nuisance but an outright show-stopper, sometimes literally. And the computer can be *so close* to being everything you could ever need, but the reality is that it becomes damn near impossible to finish a song while retaining sanity if the computer is not completely responsive and reliable at low latencies.

And whenever those threads come up, there are always a bunch of people who chime in that they have a Dell or a homemade computer from a Newegg kit or whatever and it works great. Maybe so, maybe no, but it misses the point that one computer working for one user in one studio is not even close to a comprehensive test. Change the interface, latency demands, track counts, plugin types, streaming sample demands, use of outboard hardware, specific configuration of seemingly random pieces such as the make and model of DVD drive (really!) and what works great for one person is crippled for another.

There are so many things that go into a computer that are unknowable in terms of the effect they will have on the firewire bus, or UAD compatibility, or low-latency IO demands, and so on. If you can't afford to buy dedicated DAW that costs 20% more, can you afford multiple computers if the Gateway special doesn't work out?

Someday HP will start testing for this stuff, but in the meantime, running a real-time DAW is still something of a hack, and using the machine for a purpose other than intended. If you're going to buy a big-box computer for DAW, buy one with a cash return policy and test the hell out of it.

[/rant]

Cheers.

Pieter, sorry to hear that..
we tried to get down to those issues in the other thread..

I know that you can't spend any more money, but here's something you might wanna think about:
If you can get a hand on a Toshiba Satellite 2430-101,201,.. (they are all very similar), then that might be an option for you..
I still have 2 of them for audio-work.. I installed a max of 1GB ram on both (they can't handle more than that and have only 512MB when they were shipped) and I have a 7200rpm instead of the 4800rpm drives.
i.e.
http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/TOSHIBA-SATELLITE-2430-201-Intel-P4-2-53GHz-1-GB-80GB_W0QQitemZ110289418024QQihZ001QQcategoryZ28837QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The downsides: max. screenresolution of 1024x800(which is a bit less for sonar). It's also a discontinued technology (i.e. IDE HD, pcmcia,..) So you def. would buy "old" gear.. but it's working really good!
You don't need the fast drives.. if you increase the IO-buffer size a bit then you shouldn't need to worry about the hd-performance..
the 2.5 Intel Desktop Processor is quite fast,.. not comparable with a duo or quad though..
You can usually sell that laptop at the price you paid for it.. so that's just something to think about too..
the really good ones go out for around 280-300€, sometimes you can get one for ~200€ or less..
it's all Intel/Texas Instruments onboard.. so absolutely no probs with i.e. the FA

As ever in these things, the line of people who are happy with their OEM computers forms to the right...

I don't want to argue with anyone, but I do want to reiterate the point that a non-DAW computer may not work for audio EVEN IF SOMEBODY ELSE USES IT FOR AUDIO AND IT WORKS FOR THEM. So buy the Lenovo or the Toshiba or whatever if you want, but know that the only way to know how well a given computer will work for your audio project is after you have finished it, or by purchasing a computer guaranteed to perform for audio.

Of course, I am positive that somebody is going to ignore the existence of the thread they're posting in, and ignore the fact that lots of people *are* using the exact same computer that is not working for the OP, and will admonish me for fear-mongering or something and point out as evidence that they have a Thinkpad that works great with their M-Audio soundcard recording three tracks at a time at 11ms latency with no outboard processors, and will suggest their model as therefore being a great audio computer.

I am sorry for being a lil Debbie Downer on this topic, but it drives me nuts to see someone buy a shiny new Dell that they were told is "top of the line" and then spend the next year trying to get more than one instance of Amplitube to run simultaneously without freezing the computer, or trying to resolve glitches, hiccups, or timing problems, or trying to stream large sample libraries, or trying to use something like LiquidMix or UAD, or trying to get their software to use multiple cores correctly, or any of the thousand other problems that plague brand-name computers, and then have other people chirping in "works great for me!" with zero specs, track counts, mobo or chipset info, latency info, hardware compatibility, BIOS version, CPU usage of common plugins, or whatever.

HP do not tell you what brand of RAM they are using, because they are using whatever brand is cheapest on the day they build your computer. So two HP 9000 computers made on the same day might have two different brands of RAM. Does that matter? Maybe, maybe not. But if one brand of RAM is not 100% compatible with the MOBO, then it might be a big problem for audio. Microscopic hiccups in data transfer that office users, web surfers, and even graphics-obsessed gamers never notice can ruin your tracks every single time you try to record. What MOBO is Dell using today? nobody knows, and even if you did, it probably wouldn't tell you whether that particular mobo could support *both* high firewire bandwidth *and* certain DVD drives, which wouldn't help you anyway, because there's no way to know which dvd drive or firewire controller you're getting until you open up the computer anyway, for the same reason (this is a real problem).

The specs they post are generic: 3 USB 2.0 ports, one firewire 4-pin, one DVD 8x RW, 300 GB 7200RPM HD, etc. The specific components could be anything, and could vary from one day to the next. And for most computer users, it doesn't matter. But this is not enough to know how the computer will perform at low-latency multitrack audio. It might work great. In fact, I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of DAW users are using Dell or HP or whatever. But there is no way to be sure, because none of these companies test for this kind of performance, nor design for it, nor guarantee it.

I'm going to stop beating this horse after this post, and anybody else can have the last word.

Cheers.

ORIGINAL: PieterVW

Well, I decided to give up on recording. Ever since I've bought my HP computer, I haven't recorded anything anyway. First there were the terrible issues with my M-Audio Audiophile 2496, so I recently made the switch to an external interface, an Edirol FA-66. That one didn't work at first because HP refuses to use decent chipsets. Well, € 45 and a PCI 1394 controller later, there was sound!

Unfortunately the issues I had with the old M-Audio card were back also. That means flawless playback, until something moves on the screen. Scrolling with your mouse works just like a pitch-bend-wheel on a keyboard, and the simple tracking of Sonar already causes crackling sounds everywhere. Even with the screen turned off, this is the case. Doesn't matter where I placed the monitors, what cabling I used, ... it's a problem in the core of the system.

HP helpdesk hasn't been a great help either. About the "FA-66 not playing"-issues they suggested things like: "try to install the drivers" or even worse "try putting it in another PCI slot" (WTF???).

Anyway, it seems like my computer simply isn't ready for any audio-production at all. I'm a student without an income, so I have no other choice than to stop recording. I'm graduating from university college this year and I'll need a car to go to work, so it's simply impossible for me to buy a new PC. I guess I'll just sell all my gear and go record somewhere else. With a big thanks to HP for f***ing up bigtime. If I would've known they made such crappy products, I would never have invested in new interfaces, new cabling, new computerparts, ...

So if there's anything to learn from this: DO NOT BUY A HP COMPUTER, unless you're just using it as an expensive typewriter ...

PCI m-audio problem, probably needed another slot, prolly sharing IRQ with video card. Too bad you got rid of that card, ccuz it would have prolly worked best in the right slot, but the edirol is a great unit with great mic pre's

DID YOU TRY THIS?:
Firewire setup prolly the fault of the firewire chipset(this is common problem). You can get a pci firewire card cheap(make sure it has a Texas Instruments chipset) and it should solve the issue with the firewire interface-

here is one for 27 bux-
http://www.firewire-1394.com/pyro-pci-64.htm

This one is 50 bux, but is is firewire 800(faster)
http://www.firewire-1394.com/pyro-1394b-pci-card.htm

The first one should be fine though...

ORIGINAL: Lanceindastudio

PCI m-audio problem, probably needed another slot, prolly sharing IRQ with video card. Too bad you got rid of that card, ccuz it would have prolly worked best in the right slot, but the edirol is a great unit with great mic pre's

DID YOU TRY THIS?:
Firewire setup prolly the fault of the firewire chipset(this is common problem). You can get a pci firewire card cheap(make sure it has a Texas Instruments chipset) and it should solve the issue with the firewire interface-

Tried it all mate ... changed IRQ's manually on the M-Audio, tried every PCI slot, nothing changed. Got a PCI FiWi card with TI chipset for the Edirol, that made it work but the noise-issues from the M-Audio reappeared ... I've really looked into everything, and it's just a problem rooted deep inside the computer. Nothing to be done about it.

Guess I'll have some more time to just take up one of my guitars and play a bit. I'll enjoy that!

are you using balanced cables from the edirol to your speakers ?
that's a must to avoid noise!!!

ORIGINAL: Crg

I'm not sure if you ever told us what Hp computer you are fighting with. There's one listed on the Cakewalk DAW labs page with good reveiws. I'm looking at a new Internet accessible computer that will handle Sonar. It's going to be rough.

If a purpose-made DAW is not an option for whatever reason (and they are really not that much more expensive), I think the best thing you can do is to make sure to buy from a vendor that offers cash refunds if you're not happy. this is hard but not impossible to find.

The moral to this story, by the way, is that there is no way to know whether a big box computer will work for audio until you try it. Knowing the specific model does not resolve the question, because there is no guarantee that the specific computer you get will have the same mobo, brand of ram, bios, DVD drive, network adapter, etc as another computer of the same make and model. And those are where these problems come from-- obscure conflicts between unexpected devices in a computer built from commodity components that are *supposed* to be interchangeable (and that usually are). So if HP was getting their DVD drives from factory A when cakewalk tested the model, and from factory B when Pieter got his, and now they have a mix of both versions, then you don't know whether you'll get a good one or a bad one. Moreover, the DVD drive might only cause the problem when coupled with a particular firewire controller or network card that is a configurable option, or that is yet another part that you have no control over.

Cheers.

yep's right... it's damned near impossible to find out the intimate details beforehand no matter how much internet research you undertake, and even if the components all spec out the mfr. can switch up and never feel the need to tell you. In 90% of mainstream apps it doesn't matter, so why would they?