Noise Floor Question...

I always put a gate on my master bus just before the limiter, some plugins can add extra noise. I use the Sonitus Gate, heres my settings, but you can adjust to taste.

"I have the limiter set to -.03 to avoid clipping."


I usually go with -1dBFS. It sounds a whole lot better than -0.03 on cheapo stereo playback systems.


You can make the track sound loud by focusing on the RMS levels... you don't need the peaks going to -0.03dBFS. It doesn't help anything... and it hurts when someone is listening on a cheap system.



The noise floor issue is something I would fix by going back and finding which tracks are making it happen. I'd trim the clips or use a level envelope to make sure any track that is supposed to be silent actually is. That should be easy and it'll only take a few minutes.


 all the best,
mike

Doesn't anyone read posts before they post. I have covered it all in my post #3. Obviously not!  Like I said there is no excuse for noise. It is coming from somewhere. Not a bad idea to get into tracking noisy sources down, it keeps you on your toes. Mastering plugins and things are going to emphasise it so that is why it is a good idea to track it down first.

Interesting...  Looks like I have some detective work to do.

I just disabled all plug-ins, played the project and the audio level is 0 until the music begins to play.

This suggests that a plug or plugs is introducing the noise.

I'm running the Slate VCC on all tracks and buses and now wonder if it is the culprit.

Got some experimenting to do...

Thanks.

I also limit to -1dbfs, since more often than not its going to MP3 afterwards and it clips & distorts after conversion, basically putting it over the "digital 0" if you like.

Dave King


Interesting...  Looks like I have some detective work to do.

I just disabled all plug-ins, played the project and the audio level is 0 until the music begins to play.

This suggests that a plug or plugs is introducing the noise.

I'm running the Slate VCC on all tracks and buses and now wonder if it is the culprit.

Got some experimenting to do...

Thanks.

Hi Dave,
 
To answer your question, your lead in space should read -INF and should have 0 noise. To do this, just run some automation on the dead space and have it go from -INF to 0dB on the track at the start of the song. You can do that on the end too or of course do a fade or smooth ends fade for best results.
 
You could also slip edit the track but just make sure to lightly put a fade on the end so you don't get a pop/click sound. When you export the audio, the dead space will show up, but it will be completely silent.
 
This is gonna sound weird to you, but here's how I judge how much lead in space to leave in. I press the space bar hard on my keyboard. You know how it makes a click CLICK sound...this is what I hear in my head.
 
Click click - bang, music in. The - stands for roughly 1/2 second in between the click click. I know...it sounds stupid trying to explain it, but that's how I always feel it to be.
 
On the output signals, this is what I use religiously:
 
-3 dB mix out to be prepared for mastering. 
 
Final Master output for wave files with limiting = -0.1 dB
 
Final master out for mp3's = -0.3
 
Hope this helps.
 
-Danny 

He's more of a Jet, I think

Yep... Danny said the very thing that I do to eliminate noise. 

I use automation to go from infinity down to the level I want just milliseconds before the wave in the track starts. 

On some of the guitar tracks the amp hum is audible. However, using this method, the hum is enveloped out and once the music starts it is generally covered up by the other instruments. I do envelope it out in the song if there is a long section where the guitar is not playing but the hum would be an added factor in the noise floor. 

I also do post production editing with my wave editors and they allow me to trim the lead in noise that might not be caught in the project enveloping. 

There's no real excuse with digital recording to have a noise floor that is audible unless that is your goal. 

Jeff Evans


sharke please accept my humble apologies for calling you shark. You know just one tiny little letter, yet it can mean so much. I know you you are not a shark at all but in fact a sharke. So I will never ever call you a shark again. I am really very very sorry. You know the good thing about this, is whenever I write the word sharke I am going to double check that little letter now just to make sure it is on there. 

We have got a bit of a shark problem here in Australia. They keep comin in a bit too close. They are starting to eat people but I know you would never do that because you are a nice sharke and not really a shark

That's why I put the e! E's make everything softer and fluffier. 

Dave I did some tests all be it with Studio One. Firstly when you say you connected nothing to your interface and recorded nothing, the question I have first is where did you have your gain settings for your interface preamps. These will make a huge difference. If you have your gain cranked up then the noise level will be higher compared to being turned down low.

I use a Yamaha digital mixer as my interface. I am flawed how quiet my preamps are. I set up a stereo track and with all the gain I can muster ie up full blast with nothing connected I get noise that is -108 dB down on one stereo track. 

I then created 16 stereo tracks and recorded that same noise (-108 dB) on all of them and then played them all into the masterbuss. Total noise came up as expected but only to -87 dB. 

I used Span and also the Studio One Spectrum meter. The Studio One Spectrum meter has got about 8 modes but I picked the one that gave me the highest reading and it agreed with Span in case you were wondering.

Sounds like you have got something going on in your setup. -55 dB is not great and easy to hear and that is why you are hearing it. That is only somewhere between a decent cassette deck and a reel to reel machine.

I am not that familiar with the M Audio Delta 44, I have downloaded the manual. I see it is line input device mainly is that right. How do you connect low level sources such as microphones to the M Audio 44. I guess you are pre amping mic signals first is that correct?

If the M Audio 44 is a line level device only you should be getting virtually no noise at all either at the -10dBv or + 4dBu setting BTW the +4dBu is the less sensitive setting so in theory it should be the quietest of the two settings. (but it does depend on how they have configured that. They may not alter the gain of the first stage but pad the signal in front of it first in which case the noise level of the first gain stage will be the same.) You should be seeing very very low noise levels though coming from the M Audio.

The specs put the input dynamic range at 99 dB so I guess the noise must be at least that or lower.

OK Dave that is good. But you should be getting a much better noise floor than -80 dB though on your single track. It should be closer to -100 dB or so.

Can you setup Sonar to show you the incoming noise and try things like disconnecting the M Audio and the noise should drop well down to infinity then.  If after you disconnect the M Audio and the noise remains it means it is coming from somewhere else. 

I assume no plugins or anything inside Sonar as well.

I get the impression it might be something else rather than the suggestions that konradh has made (although they are always good things to check)

I get the feeling it may be possible that the M Audio may be noisy not sure. I would like to know what sort of noise results Dave is getting with nothing connected to his DAW. Also Dave do you have any other audio interfaces you could substitute to see if the noise levels drop etc.. Sonar won't be introducing noise that is for sure, in general DAW's don't do that, they are rather perfect in that regard. (more than I can say for reel to reel multitrack recording!)

Especially as the M Audio is basically a line level device, it really should be introducing no noise at all. I mean my interface (digital mixer) has the Mix Preamps built in and even when they are flat out max gained I am still only getting -108 dB of noise on a single track which is almost ridiculously quiet and that is a Mic Pre! 

The input level sensitivity choice that is correct for him is simply based on what level the signal is that is feeding it. He says for example he is using a Mic Pre to feed into the M Audio. If the nominal output level of that Pre is +4 dBu then +4 dBu is the correct input setting.

On the other hand the word consumer only implies domestic hi fi gear for example. If he is feeding in say a CD player or something from a domestic Hi Fi setup then the signal leaving that device will be -10 dBv so that setting will be correct in that case.

Neither of these settings are responsible for the rather high noise floor that Dave is experiencing (I don't think anyway)

I spoke with Jim Roseberry (who built my DAW) this morning about the noise.

We ran a plug-in called RMS Buddy that measures the RMS level of a track or bus (as opposed to peaks) to see the overall level.  Handy plug!

RMS Buddy indicated an average noise floor of around -95db on a single channel input.

Jim said he would typically like to see this number closer to -105db.

He suggested that I look into any other devices/peripherals that I have in my recording set-up and see if I can track down anything that might be contributing noise.  A process of elimination.

He mentioned that audio interfaces that have their converters located "outside of the box" in contrast to ones like the Delta 44 (which is internal on a PCI card) tend to be quieter.

Bottomline was that he said the noise was not bad, however there is room for improvement.

I will continue to investigate and utilize some of the group's suggestions in my quest.

Thanks!