Skyline_UK
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Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
Sorry, I can't find the post from the other day - searching on here is broken - but I saw Craig Anderton mention he normalises phrases in vocal takes. I've been pondering on this and can't understand why. It can't be to get pseudo compression as it just raises parts of the audio by the same amount relative to the peak, and it also raises the noise floor in doing so. I must be missing something here.
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richardskeltmusic
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 14:41:13
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I edit vocal phrases by hand to get the volume consistently at the levels I want - so that compressors/EQ are working in a predictable fashion. Many vocalists sing low notes more quietly, swallow opening/closing phrases, and take loud breaths - all of which I may want to adjust. This editing might raise the noise floor, but even at 16 bit you're not going to notice this in the context of the mix. Some people choose to leave this levelling job to the compressor, (but you'll also get an increase in noise floor and breathing). Ultimately its about control I guess: if the vocal needs editing I want to be the one who is taking the decisions, and then use EQ/Compression etc - if it's actually required - on a top quality audio part.
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msmcleod
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 14:51:18
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I've done this in the past when recording my daughter's vocals - she's only just turned 6, so trying to get her to keep a constant distance from the mic is impossible.
Compressors are great for giving character to a voice, and I use them extensively, but for correcting massive volume differences in vocals just ends up crushing the loud bits way too much.
Splitting the vocals up into the various phrases and normalising each one gives a far more natural sound. I do this first, bounce to clips, then continue with my normal vocal processing (compression, eq, reverb etc).
Recently though, I've started using Waves Vocal Rider, which does the whole lot for me in a fraction of the time. It also saves me tearing out my hair due to the bugs in Cakewalk's clip handling. There are workarounds, but they're time consuming.
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jamesg1213
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 14:56:49
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Been a while I recorded any vocals, but in the past I used volume automation to even things out then light compression.
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msmcleod
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 15:08:29
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jamesg1213
Been a while I recorded any vocals, but in the past I used volume automation to even things out then light compression.
I tried this, but volume automation affects the signal AFTER it's gone through compression etc. So massive differences in volume still hit the compressor at different levels, resulting in very different sounding results between phrases. Making the signal more or less even before it hits any effects gets better results for me. It also means that I'm free to use volume automation later for real "mixing" duties rather than correction.
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mettelus
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 15:17:32
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Both points are mentioned above.
1. If the vocals are consistent, they hit the compressor for the settings the compressor is geared for (another reason I normalize audio in general, then presets can be re-used).
2. A generic compressor works on a linear ratio, so evening out level will still possess a difference, just less depending on ratio set. Crushing audio to get that to nearly the same level can make the audio undesirable.
Bear in mind, compression on vocals should be rather light-handed.
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scook
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 15:39:26
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☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2018/09/15 15:42:21
was it this thread? Craig's first replies here. Google and the recent posts in a user profile are helpful search tools. Using US spelling helps depending on the user.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 15:42:56
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anderton
2. Phrase-by-phrase normalization can also add strength to the vocal.
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jamesg1213
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 15:54:54
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msmcleod
jamesg1213
Been a while I recorded any vocals, but in the past I used volume automation to even things out then light compression.
I tried this, but volume automation affects the signal AFTER it's gone through compression etc. So massive differences in volume still hit the compressor at different levels, resulting in very different sounding results between phrases.
You may be right in theory, but I never had that result.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 17:54:20
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msmcleod
jamesg1213
Been a while I recorded any vocals, but in the past I used volume automation to even things out then light compression.
I tried this, but volume automation affects the signal AFTER it's gone through compression etc. So massive differences in volume still hit the compressor at different levels, resulting in very different sounding results between phrases.
Making the signal more or less even before it hits any effects gets better results for me. It also means that I'm free to use volume automation later for real "mixing" duties rather than correction.
A good case for using Clip Gain Envelopes which get applied before any FX
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chuckebaby
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 18:54:19
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☄ Helpfulby Skyline_UK 2018/09/15 20:27:25
msmcleod
Making the signal more or less even before it hits any effects gets better results for me. It also means that I'm free to use volume automation later for real "mixing" duties rather than correction.
Normalize doesn't even out the signal at all. it simply allows you to achieve the maximum possible volume without distortion or clipping. Unless of course you are splitting clips and normalizing each one of them separately. in this case, I much more prefer to use clip gain automation.
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Phoen1xPJ
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 20:09:11
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☄ Helpfulby Skyline_UK 2018/09/15 20:27:09
Waves Vocal Rider does it for me... simply lightly season with compression after. 
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bapu
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 21:12:14
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I either use:
1. Clip gain automation
2. Waves Vocal Rider
Depending on the need of the track
I never use track automation unless I am simply looking for the final stage to have an "effect" of being lower in volume on purpose (i.e. move the vocal to the back of the bus instead of in your face), but even that is rare.
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gswitz
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 22:18:55
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@ bapu, i found that interesting and helpful.
@Chuck, you don't have to normalize to 0. I normalize to -3 often when normalizing prior to mixing.
In my case, I'm mixing maybe 20 to 30 songs for the same band and building the template as i mix. Bringing things in and getting the levels to hit the fx with likeness between songs really helps me.
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msmcleod
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 23:37:26
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chuckebaby
Unless of course you are splitting clips and normalizing each one of them separately.
in this case, I much more prefer to use clip gain automation.
Yep, that's what I was doing. The tracks invariably need splitting up phrase by phrase, and also any non-silence in the silence parts taken out in any case. So going through normalising each phrase one by one works fairly well, albeit time consuming. But I only feel the need to do this when I'm recording my daughter - like I said, she's only just 6. The volume of the vocals is literally all over the place.
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bapu
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/15 23:44:18
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msmcleod
But I only feel the need to do this when I'm recording my daughter - like I said, she's only just 6. The volume of the vocals is literally all over the place.
Me and your daughter.  Although, I'm not 6 anymore.
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MacFurse
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/16 10:40:14
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I never got normalisation working in a way I found helpful and always just thought it was me not understanding the basic principle of what it does. So I gave up ages ago in favour of either manual riding, wave form editing, or my current favourite method, 'blob' editing in Melodyne, which I use extensively. For vocals, I try my hardest while tracking to get the singer to understand what I'm after. That helps a lot, but it's not always possible, or sometimes not even desirable, to get consistency. It's the same for bass. So, before I do anything else, I will bring up the track in Melodyne, change the tool to amplitude mode, and skip my way through the track listening, and adjusting volumes until I'm happy. Then I will work on timing, then any pitch editing, before bouncing the track back to clip. Then I start with compressors, then EQ, then any other fx, before moving on. In the case of riding the track, I think it's true that volume riding after the compressor sort of defeats the purpose. So, if you ride and record automation, then bounce to another track, you achieve your levelling without anything else in the path, then apply your FX. Then, to achieve more definition in your mix, you can ride the volume a second time.
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pwalpwal
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chuckebaby
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/16 14:13:12
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☄ Helpfulby Skyline_UK 2018/09/16 16:25:59
gswitz
@Chuck, you don't have to normalize to 0. I normalize to -3 often when normalizing prior to mixing.
I am aware of that. I was pointing out that normalizing doesn't even out anything. It just raises the over all level to a specified amount. Splitting up clips in sections to normalize is a lot of work. But then again I hand limit (using automation) all my sibilance Vs. using a de-esser so we each have our own methods. What ever works for us 
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chap_sistine
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/16 15:28:21
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I also use Melodyne to adjust the loudness of vocal takes and sometimes a vocal rider plugin (not Wave's one anymore, but DynaRide from TBProAudio, it's better IMHO). My latest technique combines the 2 methods, i.e. first DynaRide, then Melodyne.
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Anderton
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/16 16:28:20
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I originally got into this technique with narration, where the "message" (whatever that might be) is the absolute most important part of a production. (The Melodyne technique works well too, but I find the blobs a little more ambiguous than waveforms, and I have shortcuts and a workflow that work well with Sonar's track view.)
Bear in mind that what I do is fairly labor-intensive, but also effective. For example, I might normalize a phrase after the inhale so that the vocal is brought up, but not the inhale. This is a degree of precision that a tool like Vocal Rider can't do. Also, I don't always normalize to the same level, and sometimes I use gain changes instead (like bumping up the level 2 dB or so). The goal is to have a subjectively consistent level so that you can get a strong, present vocal with only light amounts of compression or limiting.
I also normalize guitar tracks going into an amp sim so that the way a preset affects the guitar is more consistent - I don't have to re-adjust drive or other parameters for different presets.
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Kev999
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/16 22:50:34
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I agree with Chuck. Using clip envelopes for vocals seems like a no-brainer to me. It's not just about evening out the levels, it's also about improving the phrasing by emphasizing key syllables while de-emphasizing others and reducing sibilant sounds.
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rj davis
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/17 21:51:30
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I get results that I like best with clip envelopes as well. Subtle changes are best, with light compression following. I've mixed without clip envelopes and it turned out fine, but with is better for me.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/18 14:24:08
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TECHNIQUE
I've done this for years now and not that I consider myself a pro, I find the most important step is the actual recording process itself (microphone singing techniques). that must be accomplished first and foremost.
It begins with (In this order):
- The correct mic for the job
- Trained singer who knows how to sing into a mic
- Correct distance from capsule
- Pop filter/grill
- Environment (Room ambience)
GAIN AUTOMATION
Next is the gain, how hard your signal is hitting your FX.
I don't see this step as being as important as it used to. Almost every FX now a day has some sort of input control.
If your vocals are hitting the compressor too hard, turn down the input. This is why a compressor was designed.
Too many people now a day needle things to death (including myself) there is no need to automate 2 db. of gain.
There IS however a need to automate 2 db. of volume when trying to sit vocals in the mix. Gain does have its uses but not like it used to.
VOLUME AUTOMATION
The most critical of all. this is where it all happens. If your singer wasn't perfect (some parts are louder than others) this is where make up is done. It is also where some choose to control their sibilance issues (P's SS's K's).
Some choose to use a De-esser but I prefer to hand limit. De-essers can eat up frequencies in the sparkle range. Though it is more work intensive, the finished project is much cleaner.
At first, one song will take an hour or more. after a great deal of experience, you begin to recognize wave forms as tiny little "zippers". These zippers can easily be notched out 3-6 db. depending on the severity.
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msmcleod
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/18 15:25:26
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chuckebaby
TECHNIQUE
I've done this for years now and not that I consider myself a pro, I find the most important step is the actual recording process itself (microphone singing techniques). that must be accomplished first and foremost.
It begins with (In this order):
- The correct mic for the job
- Trained singer who knows how to sing into a mic
- Correct distance from capsule
- Pop filter/grill
- Environment (Room ambience)
GAIN AUTOMATION
Next is the gain, how hard your signal is hitting your FX.
I don't see this step as being as important as it used to. Almost every FX now a day has some sort of input control.
If your vocals are hitting the compressor too hard, turn down the input. This is why a compressor was designed.
Too many people now a day needle things to death (including myself) there is no need to automate 2 db. of gain.
There IS however a need to automate 2 db. of volume when trying to sit vocals in the mix. Gain does have its uses but not like it used to.
VOLUME AUTOMATION
The most critical of all. this is where it all happens. If your singer wasn't perfect (some parts are louder than others) this is where make up is done. It is also where some choose to control their sibilance issues (P's SS's K's).
Some choose to use a De-esser but I prefer to hand limit. De-essers can eat up frequencies in the sparkle range. Though it is more work intensive, the finished project is much cleaner.
At first, one song will take an hour or more. after a great deal of experience, you begin to recognize wave forms as tiny little "zippers". These zippers can easily be notched out 3-6 db. depending on the severity.
100% agree with all you've said here. I don't think gain automation / normalisation are mutually exclusive however. I see Gain Automation as part of the mixing process, as you say, setting the level of how hard you want to hit the effects. Normalisation on the other hand, along with removing "silent" parts from clips, deleting unwanted takes etc, I'd do on the cleanup stage between recording and mixing. I see anything that comes under destructive editing as being part of the cleanup, i.e. getting your tracks to the point where you want to start mixing. Personally, I don't like using clip or volume automation to remove unwanted parts of a session. Anything that I'm not going to use (like bum notes, breathing during silent parts etc), should just be fixed or deleted. Massive (and I do mean massive, rather than subtle) variations in volume, I fix on the track, bounce to clips, and commit to the change. Same goes for pitch correction, although I don't use this often. Whilst you lose the ability to go back, I don't feel I've lost anything by committing myself at this stage. It also reduces the amount of automation/correctional effects needed at mix time.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/18 16:37:20
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Since around my first music PC in 2004 I have used Wave Lab to fix vocals, spoken voice and even full choirs.
As you work you simply highlight the part that needs attention.
You can "see" where the waveform is weak and were loud spikes are. You can use the analyzer tool to see where those sections are at to assist your eyes. You can use the normalize tool or the gain tool. When done the track will be a much higher average RMS level, nice and even and well below clipping. It a lot of work but Wave Lab makes this a much easier task than any other software I've tried.
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Anderton
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/18 17:00:41
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msmcleod
I don't think gain automation / normalisation are mutually exclusive however.
I see Gain Automation as part of the mixing process, as you say, setting the level of how hard you want to hit the effects. It's also the only way to deal with a change over time. For example, if a word trails off, normalization or gain changes won't do the job; you need to use Clip (or level) automation to add an equal and opposite ramp up to the end. The main difference for me is envelopes are for extremely precise adjustments, normalization and gain changes are for broad strokes. Whilst you lose the ability to go back, I don't feel I've lost anything by committing myself at this stage. It also reduces the amount of automation/correctional effects needed at mix time.
I agree. I figure if I listened to something and felt it needed fixing, then it needed fixing . If the fix doesn't turn out as intended, I undo and move on.
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Anderton
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/18 17:01:41
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Cactus Music
It a lot of work but Wave Lab makes this a much easier task than any other software I've tried.
With Cakewalk, I have a set of keyboard shortcuts that really speed up the workflow.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/19 10:34:27
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Anderton
msmcleod
Whilst you lose the ability to go back, I don't feel I've lost anything by committing myself at this stage. It also reduces the amount of automation/correctional effects needed at mix time.
I agree. I figure if I listened to something and felt it needed fixing, then it needed fixing . If the fix doesn't turn out as intended, I undo and move on.
Sorry boys. I never do any destructive editing Mr.Anderton, you are correct..you CAN always "undo the move". Well at least until you close the project...then what ? I don't even like bouncing/rendering Melodyne clips. But its another good example of how we each have our own way of doing things. I can respect that. Some times im ignorant to learning other methods (set in my ways).
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Cactus Music
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Re: Normalising vocal clips - Craig Anderton does this, but why?
2018/09/19 19:38:13
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In my over 20 years of rendering audio files with Wave Lab I have never ever experienced any downgrade to the sound,, only the improvements made buy fixing what was not good to begin with. As always there is the original recording backed up that in the 1 in 1,000th chance something did get broken, I can always return to the original.
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