jpetersen
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Normalization - recommended max level?
After recording I normalize all tracks so that all levels are in the same ballpark. But I am always torn as to what max level to use. 0.0dB is tempting but bad for so many reasons. So what should one aim for? I believe Redbook states max levels for CD but that's really only a consideration when mastering. Do others face this dilemma? Any recommendations?
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cuitlahac
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 11:12:45
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☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2016/01/16 11:38:15
My recommendation on this would be to suggest that you might be dealing with the "problem" in the wrong place!? I would try to focus on getting your gain-staging set properly going in to your recorded SONAR track rather than to process (normalize) all of your tracks. I'm sure that others may chime in on this as well....... but that's my "two-cents"!
Dave- SONAR Platinum, +Producer 5,7,8.5,X1PE, X2, X3e,Win7 Pro 64bit, SoundForge 10, CD Architect, Izotope 7 Advanced & Insight Metering, RAIN ION rack PC, (Nehalem) Xeon(R) CPU @ 3.06Ghz, 6GB DDR3 Ram, 2 WD640GB SATA II 7200rpm HDD's, LaCie 300GB HDD , ATI Radeon 4650 graphics (1GB) running Dual Monitors, Antelope Orion 32 + MP32 Pre's, SSL Matrix 2 Hybrid Console, M-Audio Bx8a Monitors w/ Energy 90w-12" sub, Roland A-800 PRO, BOSS BR-1600 DRS, Shure KSMs, 85s, 57s, 58s, Shure PSM Monitor, Gibson guitars, Fender P Bass.
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Anderton
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 11:25:32
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Cuitlahac's advice is sound. However if you are going to normalize, leave some headroom - at least -1 dB. For acidized loops, I'd recommend at least -3 dB as the stretching process can produce additive phase relationships.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 11:52:33
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His method is one I have used for a long time now. I sometimes tool copy each track into Wave Lab to accomplish this as it has better tools to fine tune the process. Like you can also deal quickly with random peaks manually which can eliminate using a peak limiter. I use Sonar's Normalizer often on tracks that are tame but just a little too low in level. All you nay sayers that say this is destructive? Phooey. Proper gain staging is fine when you are working alone and have time on your hands. This is best practice! I certainly roll with that. But in the case of live band recording or when your in a session with clients who need to work quickly, it is wise to record at "safe" levels. Digital audio doesn't care as much about hot signals. Normalizing to -2 or ? will solve this issue and give you a track that is much easier to work with. Sure you can just turn up the Gain of the track, that works too. But the option of normalizing has worked best for me. So to answer your question, do not use 0,There is a danger of overs at 0, you can use anything less than that. My little trick is to normalize tracks to a target of where they will sit in the mix. So I might put lead vocals @ -2 and backing vocals to -6. My goal is all faders at unity or close. This is the way I do live sound too. I use the input gain and EQ to set most levels so that my faders are at unity.. just me and how I like to work. When I see a fader down at the bottom or jammed at the top I know something is wrong with that channels gain stage. Mixing is understanding this completly. Input / track levels also interact with all your Aux/ effect send levels so a weak track will not drive a reverd buss the same as a hot one as example.
post edited by Cactus Music - 2016/01/16 12:14:39
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Anderton
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 11:56:34
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Cactus Music My little trick is to normalize tracks to a target of where they will sit in the mix. So I might put bass at -4 and backing vocals to -6. My goal is all faders at unity or close. This is the way I do live sound too.
More good advice. Hopefully sometime in the future I'll play someplace where you're doing live sound
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THambrecht
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 12:00:37
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-0,2 dB. We digitize for thousands of clients tapes and vinyl to CD and hard drives. The best level is - 0,2 dB. Some CD-Players don't like 0 dB. You also have no problems with CD-Masters by 0,2 dB. But in most case we do not normalize - instead of this we take a limiter (in our case the Waves L3 UltraMaximizer) as the last plugin (in a very small range of less than 0,5 dB). To ensure that the audio material never reaches 0 dB.
We digitize tapes, vinyl, dat, md ... in broadcast and studio quality for publishers, public institutions and individuals.4 x Intel Quad-CPU, 4GHz Sonar Platinum (Windows 10 - 64Bit) and 14 computers for recording tapes, vinyl ... 4 x RME Fireface 800, 2 x Roland Octa Capture and 4 x Roland Quad Capture, Focusrite .... Studer A80, RP99, EMT948 ... (Germany) http://www.hambrecht.de
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jpetersen
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 12:23:45
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Sounds like I work much like Cactus. Time pressure, live band recording, no idea what's going to happen on stage, no second chances. So generous headroom is priority #1. Gain-staging is out because I need to exchange tracks with collaborating partners. And it's time-consuming. In the old days I normalized externally in Sound Forge/Wavelab/Audacity before I discovered Sonar has normalization. As Cactus also points out, peaks are a problem here, too. I find expecially in a small non-distortion based band (typically 3-piece jazz/blues outfits) waveforms may momentarily reinforce to produce a fluke peaking half-wave that messes with normalization. Thanks for the tips. So no hard-and-fast rules, but 0dB is clearly bad, and, I shall revisit Wavelab.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/01/16 12:41:17
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jpetersen
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 12:25:44
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THambrecht -0,2 dB. We digitize for thousands of clients tapes and vinyl to CD and hard drives. The best level is - 0,2 dB. Some CD-Players don't like 0 dB. You also have no problems with CD-Masters by 0,2 dB. But in most case we do not normalize - instead of this we take a limiter (in our case the Waves L3 UltraMaximizer) as the last plugin (in a very small range of less than 0,5 dB). To ensure that the audio material never reaches 0 dB.
That would be for finalization/mastering, then. Thank you, your advice greatly appreciated.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 12:43:10
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-.02 is for mastering and I don't think Sonars Normalizer can be tuned that fine. For tracking -1 I think is the closest you get to zero. Not at my DAW so cannot conferm.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 12:56:12
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http://forum.cakewalk.com/Adding-programs-to-the-SONAR-Utilities-Menu-a-new-tool-Updated-to-v23-m3237117.aspx If you use the new app it's easy to add a wave editor to the tool menu. Then you just highlight the track and it will open in the wave editor for fine tuning. I'm still hoping Cakewalk will update the wave editing options. The two tools I'm missing are analyzing tools, Global RMS level and Peak level. In Wave lab I can look at what a tracks peak level is before normalizing. And RMS average is also super important for making calls. These two tools are my most used of all. If a track shows it's at 0 db peak but -22db average RMS then you immediately know you have a few peaks to deal with. Thanks Mr Anderton, It would be an honor to do sound for you. and if I do, I'll make sure your the loudest... :)
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Anderton
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 12:57:16
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Cactus Music -.02 is for mastering and I don't think Sonars Normalizer can be tuned that fine. For tracking -1 I think is the closest you get to zero. Not at my DAW so cannot conferm.
Correct, SONAR normalizes in 1 dB increments. However, note that getting too close to 0 can result in inter-sample distortion on playback after the digital signal goes through the smoothing filter. Use SSL's free X-ISM plug-in to check.
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jpetersen
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 13:14:50
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The slider and +/- buttons move in 1dB steps, but the display shows one decimal point. I can type, say, -0.2 in the edit box, then the slider/spin buttons move from -0.2 to -1.2, -2.2 and so forth. I think -2.0 will cover my needs. I'll go for that.
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Adq
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 13:15:54
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Don't do it => no problem. Why do destructive editing?
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jpetersen
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 13:22:16
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Cactus Music If you use the new app it's easy to add a wave editor to the tool menu. Then you just highlight the track and it will open in the wave editor for fine tuning.
That didn't work for me with Soundforge back in 8.5.3 (or earlier?) but I'll revisit that, too. Maybe the feature got some love since then.
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jpetersen
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 13:27:22
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Adq Don't do it => no problem. Why do destructive editing?
This has been explained already. Because gain-staging is time-consuming and to ease exchange with collaborating partners. Besides, what gets destroyed? It's 24bit depth.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 13:55:12
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It's easier but still requires paying attention to detail. Adq-- phooey to nay sayers.. And in what way is your audio destroyed I may ask? And do you not have the original stored somewhere if so? However, note that getting too close to 0 can result in inter-sample distortion on playback after the digital signal goes through the smoothing filter. Use SSL's free X-ISM plug-in to check. Glad you mentioned this and why I would not trust "some" software to do this job at that level. Sonar I stay well away from 0. I'll trust Wave Lab or Sound Forge to that task. Good tip on the free plug in.. got to love free!
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Beepster
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 13:55:35
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Probably not relevant for most applications but I manually set my completely raw/dry guitar/bass tracks to peak around -12db on average when I send them off to clients/collaborators. It'll go above that and below that throughout but if my peaks are generally around -12 it pretty much guarantees a good strong signal that never clips (unless I did something stupid like punch the pickups). Then once sims and effects are applied there is plenty of headroom. The RMS values for that range tends to be around -22. I don't use the "Gain Normalize" feature. I just watch the meters, adjust my gain levels accordingly then export the tracks to new files. Maybe not the most "standard" or "proper" method but it works and I've never had a complaint. I also have started doing it for myself. So once I've finished all my tracking and editing and ready to mix I'll do that, import those files into a brand new project and apply effects/mix with that. It actually makes mixing a lot easier because everything is all around the same volume and as I apply my effects (a lot of which are custom presets I've created) all the tracks increase in volume equally as I intend (or stay the same). My faders can stay close to the 0db mark. My busses remain consistent or I only have to group drag down faders of tracks feeding busses to get desired bus levels (which I find is great at around -6db to -8db which then sums nicely to around -3db in my "premaster" bus... which is enough headroom for slight mastering effects).... and so on. Again... probably not proper but it's the system I've been using just from simply playing around with this crap consistently for 4 years. It is kind of cobbled together from stuff I've read so not totally unique or blind though. I should probably learn about the "K" system or other mixing systems/philosophies to augment it a bit (definitely need to learn more about RMS and LUFS and whatever) but just like my approach to music I think the "Beepster hacko" system may stick with me as an underlying fundamental. You REALLY shouldn't listen to me though. I'm a hack. lol... Check out the Techniques sub forum of this site. There have been a LOT of threads about this type of thing. There a guy who goes by Jeff Evans that is all over the "metering" stuff but of course many many other pros there too (and up here). Cheers. edited: because I typed "FUDS" instead of LUFS. What in the frack is a "FUDS"? lulz... stoopid brain.
post edited by Beepster - 2016/01/16 14:18:45
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jpetersen
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 14:55:32
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H'm. SSL's free X-ISM seems to be no longer available. Lots of discussions if you search for it, but any forum with a link ends in nirvana. It's not mentioned on the SSL site, either.
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jpetersen
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Re: Normalization - recommended max level?
2016/01/16 15:00:54
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FUDS = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt System. Successful marketing tool.
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