DjiDoe
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Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
Hi, I'm controlling some external hardware via MIDI with Sonar (patch changes) and I noticed that some MIDI messages are sent randomly by Sonar. These extras messages make my hardware to crash. The extra and unwanted (which are not inserted in the sequence) CC sent are BRIGHTNESS and MODULATION. I have monitored the messages sent via the MIDI THRU of my external hardware and found those unwanted messages. Is there a solution to stop Sonar to send those unwanted messages ? Look at these pictures https://www.dropbox.com/s/wjpc6ex8l260v88/ATG-1.PNG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/crdm1simig1nq8i/MODULATION.jpg?dl=0 Any help would be very appreciated. Thanx
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brundlefly
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/07/31 12:00:44
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First off, I don't see anything that should cause "hardware to crash"...? Unless maybe you have a MIDI feedback loop.
You mentioned MIDI THRU; do you have synths daisy-chained on a single MIDI port? SONAR and whatever controller(s) you're using should generally only be using MIDI Out, though having Input Echo enabled in SONAR is effectively the same thing as enabling MIDI THRU, and could create a feedback loop if you have something else in the chain connected back to the DAW by THRU.
In any case, I think we need more detail on how things are set up, what's in the project, and at what point you're seeing these controllers sent (i.e on start, on stop or during playback).
Disable Zero Controllers When Play Stops will send CC values of 0 or 64, depending on what controllers already exist in the track, but SONAR will not send those other intermediate values unless they're in the project somewhere, either as controller messages or MIDI automation or originating from some external hardware and being input echoed.
A jittering mod wheel can send spurious messages.
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DjiDoe
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/07/31 12:42:25
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brundlefly
First off, I don't see anything that should cause "hardware to crash"...? Unless maybe you have a MIDI feedback loop.
Trust me, hardware is receiving too much info from midi and the ATG-1 crashes... confirmed by Antares. brundlefly
You mentioned MIDI THRU; do you have synths daisy-chained on a single MIDI port? SONAR and whatever controller(s) you're using should generally only be using MIDI Out, though having Input Echo enabled in SONAR is effectively the same thing as enabling MIDI THRU, and could create a feedback loop if you have something else in the chain connected back to the DAW by THRU.
Nothing is daisy-chained except for the monitoring of the MIDI messages I'm sending toi the ATG-1 (which are present even if nothing is pliugged to the MIDI THRU of the ATG-1. And no MIDI feedback for sure (No Input Echo checked in Sonar). brundlefly
Disable Zero Controllers When Play Stops will send CC values of 0 or 64, depending on what controllers already exist in the track, but SONAR will not send those other intermediate values unless they're in the project somewhere, either as controller messages or MIDI automation or originating from some external hardware and being input echoed.
Already done. Take a look to my MIDI setup : https://www.dropbox.com/s/ho6kukxbo283j82/Setup%20JFD.png?dl=0 I should add that when Sonar is closed, nothing no unwanted midi signals are to the ATG-1 BUT when Sonar is open and the sequencer is NOT running, unwanted midi are sent randomly... strange... Thanx for helping...
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tlw
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/07/31 17:44:25
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The simplest way to find out if Sonar is the source of the MIDI events is to run MidiOx between Sonar and the USB interface port(s). Then create a new project with just one MIDI track in it. Then use MidiOx to monitor the MIDI being received and output from Sonar.
Monitoring the THRU port on the Antares just adds an extra level of complexity until you know for sure whether Sonar is sending spurious MIDI data or not. I have to say I have never seen Sonar do this. It has turned up on the forum as a potential problem once in a while, though the cause if found has turned out to be not Sonar.
Incidentally, I have known M-Audio Midi interfaces to seriously garble MIDI messages. Including trashing any program I edited in a Mopho connected to one.
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brundlefly
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/07/31 18:02:33
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tlw
The simplest way to find out if Sonar is the source of the MIDI events is to run MidiOx between Sonar and the USB interface port(s). Then create a new project with just one MIDI track in it. Then use MidiOx to monitor the MIDI being received and output from Sonar.
I agree. There are too many devices and drivers between SONAR and MIDI-OX running on the laptop doing the monitoring to have any confidence about where the messages are originating. Opening a SONAR project is going to activate the MIDIsport drivers which could start the ball rolling even though SONAR is not sending anything. I missed the first screenshot earlier showing all the Brightness (CC74) messages. Based on experience, I can tell you it's highly unlikely those are coming from SONAR while the transport is stopped.
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DjiDoe
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/08/02 11:50:38
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NEWS !
New computer, new interface (Focusrite Scarlett 18i8), new MIDI cables, new file with just 1 MIDI track :
Result :
Same unwanted MIDI CC #74...
Those signals are randomly sent.
What is common to all those tests ? SONAR !
I'm a long time Cakewalk user... since 1991... so I'm not a basher.
I know what I'm doing and SONAR is really sending those unwanted MIDI signals... could someone check please ?
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/08/02 12:09:25
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DjiDoe
I should add that when Sonar is closed, nothing no unwanted midi signals are to the ATG-1 BUT when Sonar is open and the sequencer is NOT running, unwanted midi are sent randomly... strange...
Thanx for helping...
Hi! I had a very similar sounding problem that took me ages to figure out: X32 mixer crashing / rebooting when used with Sonar (although it had worked for months before) ... and it never crashed without Sonar ... It eventually turned out that I had at some point turned on "MIDI Echo" that caused a MIDI loop (Sonar was receiving X32 MIDI messages, added its own and sent it back out, only to receive it again ... boom crash ...) So you might want to check if you either have "MIDI Echo" activated on one of your Sonar MIDI tracks ... or have activated "Preferences/Playback and Recording/Always Echo Current MIDI Track" because this what caused the crashes in my scenario ...
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DjiDoe
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/08/02 12:27:45
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Thanx a lot, I will check for that, the option was checked in SONAR.
I'll report when I'll have done some testing.
Thanx again
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brundlefly
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/08/02 12:41:21
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Try this: - Set up a loopback of a MIDI OUT on the Scarlett to MIDI IN via MIDI DIN cable. - Create a new project from the default Normal template with two MIDI tracks - one sending to the MIDI OUT, and the other receiving the MIDI IN. - Disable Always Echo Current MIDI Track, and set the sending track's Input to None. - Disable Zero Controllers when Play Stops. - Disable Stop at Project End in Track View Options. - Use MIDI-OX on the receiving port or something like TenCrazy's PortDiag MFX on the receiving track (with Input Echo enabled) to monitor returning messages. - Start and stop playback and/or arm the receiving track and start/stop recording. You should see nothing. Assuming that's the case, start inserting other hardware in the chain, and re-test. BTW, what version of SONAR are we talking about? EDIT: Missed the previous posts. Always Echo Current MIDI track can cause issues, but OP had said no Input Echo was enabled, and the routing diagram showed no MIDI IN connections to the Main DAW, so it shouldn't have been a problem either way.
post edited by brundlefly - 2015/08/02 12:50:01
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DjiDoe
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/08/02 12:55:14
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Thx brundlefly, I'm using SONAR PLATINUM.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/08/02 13:12:40
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Have you eliminated the possibility that this errant controller (VCA filter, modulation) information is coming from a softsynth open in Sonar via a MIDI out on the synth? Anything that Sonar itself is sending should be visible in the event list on a Sonar MIDI track. But a softsynth can be the source of MIDI messages that you are not yourself entering in a track. MIDIOx should give you a list of MIDI sources in your system, and you can monitor each of them to see if any of them are active in addition to Sonar. You might also consider changing the channel on which your outboard gear is receiving and Sonar is sending so that it is only responding to a single track at a time. And of course if you are using your outboard gear in a daisy chain, it is possible that some outboard gear is sending the message down the line. Or an attached control surface or synth with a stuck switch, wheel or slider could be the culprit.
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DjiDoe
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/08/06 15:03:45
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After 3 days, I'm completely stucked... Just a midi track in SONAR Platinum, no soft-synth inserted. Just the second computer's midi interface to monitor MIDI signals coming from the first computer... And SONAR keep on sending random and unwanted MIDI signals.
Antares sent me a new firmware that makes the unit to ignore those unwanted messages and prevent it from crashing... So I give up... The problem is still there but I get around it...
:(
Jeff
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brundlefly
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/08/06 16:23:02
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Did you ever set up the test I suggested? It's impossible to effectively to troubleshoot something with so many unknowns if you won't help us eliminate some of them. You are our hands and eyes.
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tlw
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/08/06 16:23:18
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Have you tried using MidiOx on the computer with Sonar to see what Sonar is sending out if anything?
If Sonar is emiting MIDI CC messages then it makes no difference what's connected to the DAW via MIDI because that will only be repeating the MIDI. So MidiOx should show it.
Also try connecting the Antares and if the CCs are being emited connect MidiOx to the relevant MIDI output port in Sonar and the MIDI inteface so MIdiOx sits between them and records everything that's going on.
Believe me, if my copy of Sonar was pumping out CC1 or 74 I'd have noticed. It isn't.
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Anderton
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Re: Not wanted midi CC sent to my external hardware
2015/08/06 20:42:56
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What happens if you put the MIDI Event Filter plug-in your single MIDI track and filter out everything except program changes?
I can't imagine a scenario where SONAR would decide to send out random MIDI data all by itself with the transport stopped.
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