Helpful ReplyNow that I'm done painting the studio...

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Rain
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2014/09/09 02:34:23 (permalink)

Now that I'm done painting the studio...

I'm finally starting room treatment. Which brings an interesting question in regards to how the rest of the furniture interacts with sound.
 
For exemple...
 
Technically, among others, I'd have bass traps in all 4 corners of the wall behind my desk. But in each corner, at an angle, I have a little desk (recycled night stands actually) which I use to store gear and stuff - books, cables, pics, strings, DVDs, etc...
 
As such:

 
What happens to bass traps in the lower corners - No need? Above the desk? Get rid of the desks if I really want the best possible sound?
 
Likewise, behind me, 3/4 of the wall is occupied by a closet, filled with cardboard boxes, guitar cases, books, dvd's, old gear, and such, all hidden behind a pair of curtain which closes the closet.
 
Looks a bit naked right now, but this gives an idea - pic taken from behind the desk/monitors. My plan for that right hand side is one bass trap in the upper corner and that's it. The lower corner is in the closet.
 

 
Question here is a bit rhetorical because I don't think I'd like to store stuff elsewhere, though I could, technically. Does it make room treatment less efficient than if I just emptied the whole thing and installed a bunch of bass traps in every corner? How does that particularity affect the sound?
 
I've already notices when I removed them in order to paint that those (relatively thick) black curtains I have installed all over the place do take away high frequencies.
 

 
Confirmed that even just a bit of sound treatment would make a difference - even if I can't afford to fly Ethan W. here to take care of it w/ a limitless budget.
 
 

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#1
Jeff Evans
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 03:26:28 (permalink)
Well done Rain.  I like the paint work. I dig the colour too.  I really enjoy painting myself actually.  And if you are careful and do a great job it can be very satisfying. I recently had to some painting work and really enjoyed it.  Paint is so technical now and thank god it is waterbased for the most part.  And yes you get to hear a LOT of music in the process.  Except I have got paint on my fave ghetto blaster now!

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Rimshot
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 08:02:40 (permalink)
It looks great Rain.  I too love the color.  The items and areas you describe are acting as traps in themselves.  You will need to do your testing by listening at different levels and sitting in different places in the room to see where the standing waves and phasing occurs.  You will most likely need more treatment to balance out the room but that is up to your ears to decide.  
Great job so far!
 

Rimshot 

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batsbrew
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 11:11:42 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2014/09/09 15:27:25
sound bounces.
 
it ends up where you do not want it.
 
there are some calculators available..
do some homework here:
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=1
 
 

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batsbrew
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 11:13:08 (permalink)

Bats Brew music Streaming
Bats Brew albums:
"Trouble"
"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
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#5
wst3
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 13:51:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2014/09/09 15:28:12
no easy answer without a lot more info, but do keep in mind that bass traps are typically designed to control the bottom most octaves, maybe 2 or 3, maybe more?
 
Ignoring for a moment the Tom Hidley designed 20 Hz rooms<G>, let us assume that you need to trap energy in the bottom three octaves - 40 Hz to 80 Hz, 80 Hz to 160 Hz, and 160 Hz to 320 Hz. At 40 Hz you are dealing with a wavelength of roughly 28 feet. Unless your end table has a 28 foot surface it is going to be invisible at 40 Hz.
 
At 80 Hz the wavelength is about 14 feet - table is still invisible.
 
At 160 Hz the wavelength is 7 feet - same result I'd guess
 
and at 320 Hz the wavelength drops to 3.5 feet, at which point a large end table could start to interfere with the behavior of the bass trap, assuming it is purely absorptive and not tuned.
 
It isn't that simple, sadly. The room dimensions and geometry will also play a role, but for the most part you can ignore the end tables in the corners.

-- Bill
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Rain
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 17:29:21 (permalink)
Rimshot
It looks great Rain.  I too love the color.  The items and areas you describe are acting as traps in themselves.  You will need to do your testing by listening at different levels and sitting in different places in the room to see where the standing waves and phasing occurs.  You will most likely need more treatment to balance out the room but that is up to your ears to decide.  
Great job so far!
 




Thanks :)  - bass traps are only one step, yes. It's the first thing I mentioned because it seemed to me that this could potentially be the most urgent and obvious part of room treatment, a given.
 
I'm ordering wedges and maybe a couple of other things.

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mixmkr
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 17:47:50 (permalink)
carefully ordering the foam stuff, as most of it is just junk.  Looks cool, but ends there.

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Rain
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 17:51:14 (permalink)
mixmkr
carefully ordering the foam stuff, as most of it is just junk.  Looks cool, but ends there.




Took tips from a friend who's studio we visited Saturday. ;)

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mixmkr
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 17:57:14 (permalink)
I think some of the Auralex stuff can approach being OK.  Long time ago, I ordered some fancy looking stuff and it basically did nothing as compared to the bass traps and wall absorbers make with the ubiquitous rigid fiberglass on home treatments you see nowadays.
I will say, I've never walked into a big boy studio and seen rigid fiberglass hanging on the walls or stuffed in corners. (ala Ethan Winer style or his counterparts)  The movable gobos were the only place I saw stuff like that.

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Rain
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 18:13:02 (permalink)
mixmkr
I think some of the Auralex stuff can approach being OK.  Long time ago, I ordered some fancy looking stuff and it basically did nothing as compared to the bass traps and wall absorbers make with the ubiquitous rigid fiberglass on home treatments you see nowadays.
I will say, I've never walked into a big boy studio and seen rigid fiberglass hanging on the walls or stuffed in corners. (ala Ethan Winer style or his counterparts)  The movable gobos were the only place I saw stuff like that.




Our friend's studio has a mix of both foam and home made fiberglass thingies. He built his studio with the help of a big shot who assisted him with the sound treatment aspect of things.
 
For a private/home studio, it's definitely more on the high end than anything I could dream of - his empty desk alone is probably worth more than all my gear... :/
 
 It's an awesome sounding room. But it also goes against some advices which I read on the web, from people who seem to get incredibly anal about room acoustic. Those people's musical output I've never heard though - but I've heard our friend's mixes in his studio as well as mine and in many other places - if the proof's in the pudding, well...
 
Personally, I see room treatment as an ongoing project that I can work on and keep on improving over time. I agree that some things may not be as optimal as others or even questionable, but as I said, only just those curtains that hang on the wall have a noticeable impact on the sound - though I didn't buy them for their acoustic properties, which would have to be practically inexistent. 

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mixmkr
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 18:30:24 (permalink)
yes.... the pudding proof.  I always put that first.  When people have links to their pudding proof after some strong comments, I like to hear what their pudding sounds like.
Good luck on the updates...and you'll get that control room you desire sooner than you think.  The bar isn't too high.

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blindhorse
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/09 20:22:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2014/09/10 14:09:27
Hello Mr. Rain, I am so envious of you.  I wish that I could have a dedicated space to have a studio.  I love the red and black.
 
I would also like to tell you one more thing.  There is no perfect room.
 
Do not let your room obsession come before your music.
 
Tweak your room the best you are able; always taking in to account the budget, reality, and Mass.  The Low end will haunt all small room mix acolytes; low end will haunt pros too.  With that said, nothing haunts us more than a reluctance to learn and compromise.
 
Become one with the room.  Know her weaknesses and strengths.  Study, study, study, acoustics of recording; then forget all that you have learned and use your ears.
 
Strive for an awesome room, not a perfect room.  Leave time to improve yourself, and the room will follow.
 
One more thing...take your guitar, and walk around your abode as you jam out.  Listen closely to all the resonances, nulls, and maskings that you are humanly possible to discern.  I would think that you may find some excellent locations which would yield marvelous results concerning the myriad of compositional workings that will reveal themselves as you make your journey...Your "room" will have nothing to do with it, so record there too!
 

I can't wait to hear the results.  Please share when you are confident enough.

 
the blind horse
 
 
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wst3
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/10 13:18:19 (permalink)
mixmkr<snippity>
I will say, I've never walked into a big boy studio and seen rigid fiberglass hanging on the walls or stuffed in corners. (ala Ethan Winer style or his counterparts)  The movable gobos were the only place I saw stuff like that.



Here's the deal... there are three tools one has for room treatment - absorption, diffusion, and reflection. All three of these can be part of the room design, or part of the room treatment. If you make them part of the room design you (generally) end up using less of all of them, since the room dimensions and geometry do the lion's share of the work.
 
Few of us can afford/justify a purpose built room, so we are left with room treatment. That's not a bad thing at all, just is. But it is the reason you don't often see a lot of foam or fiberglass on the control room or studio walls in a "big boy" studio.
 
Foam vs Fiberglass panels - every material has different absorptive properties. Most manufacturers of absorbers publish their own measurements, and these days the measurements are (mostly) meaningful, although you may need to read the fine print to understand how they made those measurements.
 
Both work, but both solve different problems. And once you understand which does what you can make an informed purchase, and get the results you want.
 
Before you make any purchase you need to find the optimal location for the monitors and your ears - it isn't always the most ergonomic, or attractive arrangement, so you may have to make some trade-offs, but that is the best starting point.
 
My current temporary digs are completely untreated. In fact it's a mess! But I was able to improve, dramatically, both the stereo image and the frequency balance by experimenting with placement. It is NOT ideal, but it works. I am not happy with the bottom octaves, but that turns out to be my choice of monitors, not the room (well, mostly, you know what I mean<G>). New monitors will extend the low end, and I may need to make further adjustments, but I'm anxious to give it a try. (FWIW, current monitors use a 5" driver, new ones will use an 8" driver, based on preliminary - read not in my space - auditions this will help a lot.)

Have fun! Make Music!

-- Bill
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#14
Rain
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/10 18:01:56 (permalink)
wst3
mixmkr<snippity>
I will say, I've never walked into a big boy studio and seen rigid fiberglass hanging on the walls or stuffed in corners. (ala Ethan Winer style or his counterparts)  The movable gobos were the only place I saw stuff like that.



Here's the deal... there are three tools one has for room treatment - absorption, diffusion, and reflection. All three of these can be part of the room design, or part of the room treatment. If you make them part of the room design you (generally) end up using less of all of them, since the room dimensions and geometry do the lion's share of the work.
 
Few of us can afford/justify a purpose built room, so we are left with room treatment. That's not a bad thing at all, just is. But it is the reason you don't often see a lot of foam or fiberglass on the control room or studio walls in a "big boy" studio.
 
Foam vs Fiberglass panels - every material has different absorptive properties. Most manufacturers of absorbers publish their own measurements, and these days the measurements are (mostly) meaningful, although you may need to read the fine print to understand how they made those measurements.
 
Both work, but both solve different problems. And once you understand which does what you can make an informed purchase, and get the results you want.
 
Before you make any purchase you need to find the optimal location for the monitors and your ears - it isn't always the most ergonomic, or attractive arrangement, so you may have to make some trade-offs, but that is the best starting point.
 
My current temporary digs are completely untreated. In fact it's a mess! But I was able to improve, dramatically, both the stereo image and the frequency balance by experimenting with placement. It is NOT ideal, but it works. I am not happy with the bottom octaves, but that turns out to be my choice of monitors, not the room (well, mostly, you know what I mean<G>). New monitors will extend the low end, and I may need to make further adjustments, but I'm anxious to give it a try. (FWIW, current monitors use a 5" driver, new ones will use an 8" driver, based on preliminary - read not in my space - auditions this will help a lot.)

Have fun! Make Music!




I also bought 5" based on the assumption that they'd be a better choice for a smaller room, but I'm not so sure anymore. I am contemplating moving to 8" eventually. But that's really not on top of my list.
 
I can't remember the exact dimensions of this room - roughly + 9ft wide and maybe 14ft long. The desk sits in the middle of the room, a bit less than 3ft from the wall. That's the one thing I was careful of, to have the monitors far enough from that wall and the same distance from the walls on each side, and to follow the basic triangle rule.
 
I also grabbed Auralex pads to isolate them from the shelf and desk, which incidentally brings them up  to just the right height in terms of how they align w/ my ears.

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Dave Modisette
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/12 21:56:08 (permalink)
I'm envious of your freshly painted studio.  When I put my studio together, I just used some left over neutral colors from our kitchen and dining room painting session.  It's kind of like a very, very light sage color.  But I have some LED flood lights that throw color up on the walls.   To paint again would require me to spend a week tearing everything down and setting it up again.  Not appealing at all.
 
As far as acoustic treatment, I love the fiberglass panels.  I've got a few homemade units in the iso booth but I prefer to buy them professionally made and let them do all of the itching.   I was very lucky and found some being sold by a guy with a killer home entertainment center in an apartment.  He was moving to take a job out of state and he couldn't take them with him.  I found them on Craigslist and made an offer if he couldn't find someone to pay his asking price.  I got them for a song, practically.

My control room started off being a Live End Dead End design but reversed.  My dead end is behind me and is built into the walls via a helmholtz resonator design on the side walls.  I have a sofa behind me with a homemade quadratic diffusor.  I got the idea from an article written by a guy who contended that most living rooms had stereo systems on shelves opposite of a wall with absorptive furniture.  I failed to consider that I would be mixing from a position not typical of a living room listener.  Haha.   My guests get to hear it from back there though and it has helped me so far.

Eventually, I placed some other 3" and 4" thick panels strategically on the business end of the room by using the old "mirror on the wall" trick.  I find the room enjoyable to work in.

.
 
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The Band19
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/13 00:45:40 (permalink)
That's pretty cool... I do everything in the cans. I can get some pretty good results, but I would love to have a real studio like this one day.

Sittin downtown in a railway station one toke over the line.
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wst3
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/13 10:04:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2014/09/13 18:29:31
feeling pedantic this morning (need more coffee!!!!)
 
LEDE(tm) was a design APPROACH championed by Chips Davis, Don Davis (no relation), and several other acousticians and audio engineers in the 1980s. As with many other things, it was based on research from earlier decades, but the advent of the Time Delay Spectrometryand TEF it was now possible to document the performance of small spaces.

The thing is LEDE(tm) and RFZ(tm) and other design philosophies, including the "Non Environment" approach are all simply (???) attempts to control reflections - and specifically to redirect, diffuse, or absorb reflections so that only "good" reflections reach the listener.
 
So the live end can be in the front or the back, and opposite either an absorptive or diffusive surface. The treatments themselves are not nearly as important as the result. I think most here probably appreciate that, but figured it bears repeating.
 
What you can not do - and yes, I've seen examples - is put the live end on the right and the dead end on the left. Symmetry is still critical, although the definition of symmetry becomes complex in surround environments<G>!
 
My point is don't get hung up on a specific approach. Some rooms lend themselves to one approach, but most rooms can be treated in any fashion as long as you pay attention to mitigating the bad reflections.
 
The other point - in a purpose built room treatments become much less important because the dimensions and geometry take care of most of the bad reflections.

-- Bill
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Dave Modisette
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/13 11:23:51 (permalink)
wst3
feeling pedantic this morning (need more coffee!!!!)
 
LEDE(tm) was a design APPROACH championed by Chips Davis, Don Davis (no relation), and several other acousticians and audio engineers in the 1980s. As with many other things, it was based on research from earlier decades, but the advent of the Time Delay Spectrometryand TEF it was now possible to document the performance of small spaces.

The thing is LEDE(tm) and RFZ(tm) and other design philosophies, including the "Non Environment" approach are all simply (???) attempts to control reflections - and specifically to redirect, diffuse, or absorb reflections so that only "good" reflections reach the listener.
 
So the live end can be in the front or the back, and opposite either an absorptive or diffusive surface. The treatments themselves are not nearly as important as the result. I think most here probably appreciate that, but figured it bears repeating.
 
What you can not do - and yes, I've seen examples - is put the live end on the right and the dead end on the left. Symmetry is still critical, although the definition of symmetry becomes complex in surround environments<G>!
 
My point is don't get hung up on a specific approach. Some rooms lend themselves to one approach, but most rooms can be treated in any fashion as long as you pay attention to mitigating the bad reflections.
 
The other point - in a purpose built room treatments become much less important because the dimensions and geometry take care of most of the bad reflections.


I've got to agree with you on this.  I think one of the most important considerations you have to keep in mind is how much work is it going to be to bug out if you have to move.  Or can your studio space be re-purposed at a future date.  I figure my space could be a really nice man cave/home theater set up with a separate side area that could be an office, bar or snack bar.  

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http://www.gatortraks.com 
My music.
... And of course, the Facebook page. 
#19
Rain
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/13 18:36:26 (permalink)
That's quite an awesome place and set up Dave - in a totally different league than my humble little place but inspiring. :)

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mixmkr
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/13 18:53:07 (permalink)
Mod Bod
  I find the room enjoyable to work in.

.
 
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I'm guessing that's because you have a nice looking blond in leather hot pants standing around watching you mix?? ;-D

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Dave Modisette
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/13 19:20:34 (permalink)
Rain
That's quite an awesome place and set up Dave - in a totally different league than my humble little place but inspiring. :)


It started pretty humble and then I got carried away.  
 

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Dave Modisette
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/13 19:23:26 (permalink)
mixmkr
Mod Bod
  I find the room enjoyable to work in.

.
 
More photos - https://www.facebook.com/Gatortraks/photos_stream
 


I'm guessing that's because you have a nice looking blond in leather hot pants standing around watching you mix?? ;-D


Yeah, she was a cutie but she was just a high school girl and her Mom was sitting on the couch taking the photo.  Haha.  I make it a rule that minors always have a parent in the sessions.

Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

http://www.gatortraks.com 
My music.
... And of course, the Facebook page. 
#23
Rain
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/19 19:56:05 (permalink)
And the result so far, for those who don't venture downstairs too often... :)
 

 
 
Things do sound more balanced and stable, and the low end is a bit tighter/room less boomy. I focused on the front of the room (behind the monitors), the 4 upper corners and the first reflection spot relative to my mixing position on the side walls. There's still plenty of room for improvement but the word stable pops up to mind every time I put on a reference track.

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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/21 08:31:08 (permalink)
I'm just impressed that you painted the room, Rain. I'm sitting here looking at cobwebs in the corners and thinking the best device I could bring into my space is a vacuum cleaner.


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#25
michaelhanson
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/21 10:26:51 (permalink)
Careful though Bit, you might alter the sound of your room by doing that. 

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#26
Rain
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/21 15:03:54 (permalink)
I am useless with tools, but I enjoy painting. Plus, my rig is very basic so it's not like I have tons of things to unplug and move. If paint alone could improve acoustic, I'd have had this room fixed ages ago.

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#27
bitflipper
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Re: Now that I'm done painting the studio... 2014/09/22 10:07:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2014/09/22 13:06:35
I haven't seen acoustical paint yet, but it's only a matter of time before some con artist sees the potential in that.
 
There is, however, acoustical lacquer. You paint it directly onto your speakers (not the cabinets, the actual drivers). No kidding. And only 300 bucks a bottle - a pittance considering you'll be ruining much more expensive speakers.
 
Come to think of it, paint does have significant acoustical effect, but only if you're painting concrete. It adds something like 5dB of additional transmission loss to a cement wall. No perceptible effect on drywall, though.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#28
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