OT/ Hammond M3

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DigiBiu
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2008/05/20 23:13:04 (permalink)

OT/ Hammond M3

Hello key/organ players
I have a chance to buy a Hammond M3 organ, perfect condition, just a few cosmetic scratches. I can get it for less than $300 buy pickin it up myself, about 5 hours away. Is this a good deal? I would really like to have some sort of B3 in my studio, and this is about all I can afford right now. From what I have read, this organ is considered a "Baby 3" when teamed with a leslie. It has the same tonewheel as the B3, but less notes on each keyboard, lower octave is is not as low as the B3. Let me know what you think.

David

 
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    daveny5
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 00:42:25 (permalink)
    I'd pass on it. Here's why:

    First of all, before you even consider it you'd better check the tonewheel because it might not be functioning properly on all the notes. If you pull out all the drawbars and listen carefully to each note, you may hear some partials are missing and if so, it won't sound very good in recordings.

    Second, if you're planning on moving it, its very heavy.

    Third, its not a B3. No presets and the sounds aren't nearly as good. I had an M2 and I was disappointed. I dumped it years ago. I could never have moved it into my current studio which is on the second floor of my house.

    But MOST of all, unless you're a collector, why buy a standalone organ when for $200 you can get Native Instruments B4. There's even a few free/cheap B3 softsynths on the web which aren't bad. Google for Organized Trio.

    If you don't have a keyboard, you could pick up a MIDI controller for a few more bucks which you could use for a lot more things than just an organ sound. I guarantee the organ doesn't have MIDI.

    Dave
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    #2
    DaneStewart
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 00:51:04 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: daveny5

    I'd pass on it. Here's why:

    First of all, before you even consider it you'd better check the tonewheel because it might not be functioning properly on all the notes. If you pull out all the drawbars and listen carefully to each note, you may hear some partials are missing and if so, it won't sound very good in recordings.

    Second, if you're planning on moving it, its very heavy.

    Third, its not a B3. No presets and the sounds aren't nearly as good. I had an M2 and I was disappointed. I dumped it years ago. I could never have moved it into my current studio which is on the second floor of my house.

    But MOST of all, unless you're a collector, why buy a standalone organ when for $200 you can get Native Instruments B4. There's even a few free/cheap B3 softsynths on the web which aren't bad. Google for Organized Trio.

    If you don't have a keyboard, you could pick up a MIDI controller for a few more bucks which you could use for a lot more things than just an organ sound. I guarantee the organ doesn't have MIDI.


    Um....everything he just said.
    P.S. I love organs, so I am not easily pleased by just any organ softsynth.

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    #3
    gmp
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 03:18:39 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: daveny5

    I'd pass on it. Here's why:

    First of all, before you even consider it you'd better check the tonewheel because it might not be functioning properly on all the notes. If you pull out all the drawbars and listen carefully to each note, you may hear some partials are missing and if so, it won't sound very good in recordings.

    Second, if you're planning on moving it, its very heavy.

    Third, its not a B3. No presets and the sounds aren't nearly as good. I had an M2 and I was disappointed. I dumped it years ago. I could never have moved it into my current studio which is on the second floor of my house.

    But MOST of all, unless you're a collector, why buy a standalone organ when for $200 you can get Native Instruments B4. There's even a few free/cheap B3 softsynths on the web which aren't bad. Google for Organized Trio.

    If you don't have a keyboard, you could pick up a MIDI controller for a few more bucks which you could use for a lot more things than just an organ sound. I guarantee the organ doesn't have MIDI.


    I've owned an M3, a B3, and a porta B. They were all very good. The presets on a B3 are simply preset drawbar settings and don't add an additional sounds. The sounds on a B3 are essentially the same as an M3. I don't remember the M2.

    You can quickly change sounds by hitting presets that's the only real advantage. The M3 can pretty much do anything a B3 can, excepting the obvious fewer notes on the manuals and also the pedal board is totally different. If you're not going to be playing the bass pedals and don't need the extra notes on the keyboard, then the M3 will be fine, if it's in good shape.

    Hold notes and pull out the drawbars to make sure they work, you can clean the contacts by holding down a handful of keys and turning this screw that drags the buss bars over the key contacts. That can make a big difference in whether all the drawbars are sounding and can get rid of some noise. Sometimes a wire just falls off the drawbar and can very easly be soldered back on. Open the back of the M3, it's really cool and interesting.

    Actually the Leslie has quite a lot to do with the sound. A B3 without a Leslie sounds like a castrated B3. Before you buy it check it out thoroughly. You may decide the B4 is a more practical option. I use it and for organ overdubs it's so much easier than dealing with a real organ, so it really depends on what your needs are and what turns you on.

    Some B3 are great others, are dogs, same with M3's. Some M3's are better sounding than some B3's. It depends on what kind of shape they're in and also if they had some customization.

    Just like guitar players find special tubes and amps, the same with B3 players, some knew great ways of getting their B3's sounding quite different, with a lot of bite and grit and balls. So if you happen to run across a screamin M3 or B3, it would be worth it and maybe even a great investment as a collectors item. Like a guitar or a piano, each hammond organ has it's own personality and sound.

    Gerry Peters
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    rodreb
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 10:32:20 (permalink)
    I've had a B3, An M3, a CV, and an A100. Used to haul them around all the time. Trust me, the M3 is the lightest one of the bunch, easily managable by 2 guys.

    M3's sound great!

    Yes, you DO NEED a leslie with it, or any Hammond to get THE sound.

    Not sure what the Hammond market is in your area but, for my area $300 is a little steep for an M3. Around here people put old Hammonds in the newspaper in our "Freebie Friday" section...... "Free.... You move". I recently picked up a mint condition A100 for $100.

    I'd TRY to get the price down a little and of course, check it over thoroughly (as you should ANY used item), if all seems well..... I'd buy it if you really want the Hammond sound.

    I've got lots of Hammond emulation intruments and while they are not bad, especially in the context of a mix...... They DO NOT replace a REAL Hammond!



    ROD

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    #5
    Fog
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 10:36:21 (permalink)
    If you have the space for it and the budget etc.. then cool

    is there any maintenance costs for it? e.g. tuners , people who fix such things are thinner on the ground these days.

    I'm guessing a lot here would go for the soft synth versions.

    although my friend is forever buying / using then selling synths, while another has a stupidly large amount of vintage synths.

    if you can justify it and it makes you happy then go for it, me I'd rather spend my money on vst-i's
    post edited by Fog - 2008/05/21 10:58:37
    #6
    yorolpal
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 10:54:16 (permalink)
    I had both a "B" and a "C" in my younger days and actually hauled them around to gigs. Along with a Rhodes, Wurlitzer, Clavinet AND a dang Mellotron. Sheesh. But it's getting harder every year now to believe I actually ever did such a crazy thing. While it would be fun (tho possibly a maintenence nightmare) to own an old Hammond and Leslie combo I'd have to side with Dave on this one. Do yourself a favor and spend your dough on NI's "B4". The latest version is really a marvel and all you'll ever need in the organ department with plenty of tweakability to get from as new and clean to as old and dirty as you'd like. Plus it weighs, like, an ounce.

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    Dave Modisette
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 11:52:47 (permalink)
    I had both a "B" and a "C" in my younger days and actually hauled them around to gigs.
    On behalf of the "other musicians in the band during the late seventies and early eighties", we hate your guts.

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    #8
    Dave Modisette
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 11:55:47 (permalink)
    Do yourself a favor and spend your dough on NI's "B4". The latest version is really a marvel and all you'll ever need in the organ department with plenty of tweakability to get from as new and clean to as old and dirty as you'd like. Plus it weighs, like, an ounce.
    Does it play like an organ. IOW, if I have a "for real" player sit in for a session is he going to be able to work it like the real deal.

    What about those little modular Hammond combos that I've seen? The ones that you can add on a second keyboard and bass pedals.

    Are they any good?

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    #9
    daveny5
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 12:07:23 (permalink)
    Does it play like an organ. IOW, if I have a "for real" player sit in for a session is he going to be able to work it like the real deal.


    Depends on what MIDI keyboard you use to play it. If you have a non-weighted action, it may not be bad. A weighted action piano keyboard would be more difficult to play like the light touch on a Hammond.

    Dave
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    philipstaley
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 12:43:26 (permalink)
    A second on the Leslie. I have an A100 that I got for free, but without the Leslie it's incomplete.
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    s_barber
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 13:02:55 (permalink)
    I have 2 M3s and 1 Leslie 147. Anyone want one? All three are collecting cobwebs for the day when I'm an old codger and need something to restore. I always thought the Ms sounded like the Bs just with less keys. I use Organized Trio. It's not the same but my back sure feels a lot better. It's all what your ears gets used to sometimes.

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    bitflipper
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 14:05:29 (permalink)
    If you have room for it, first verify there are no problems with it and then go for it. But check it out first because if it needs work, it'll be expensive and depending on where you live it may be hard to find someone to do the work. If possible, take along somebody who is a long-time Hammond player. They'll know what to look for.

    I'd like to offer an alternative view to daveny5's comments.

    First, any problems you have will most likely be with dirty or corroded contacts, the key switches or drawbars - not the tonewheel. Still, if there are problems like this they can be expensive and/or difficult to repair, so he's absolutely correct that you should listen closely to every note and drawbar setting.

    As for the "it's heavy" argument, well if it's going into the studio it's a one-time job. I, too, dragged around organs back in the day. One of them was over 600 pounds, a Lowry electric reed. I, too, do not wax nostalgic about those days and appreciate not having to do that anymore.

    But my biggest objection to Dave's comments was "why buy a standalone organ when for $200 you can get Native Instruments B4". Oh, where to begin refuting that statement? To my knowledge, there is no MIDI controller that has the feel of a Hammond keyboard. And I've looked long and hard. I have great B3-style sounds available to me in various synthesizers, both soft and hard, which would have been perfect had I found such a controller. In the end, I bought one of the new Suzuki Hammond XK-1s, which come very, very close to mimicing the B-3 sound but more importantly it plays like a Hammond.


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    DigiBiu
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 14:29:00 (permalink)
    Well,
    I already have NI B4II, and it does sound "like" the real thing, but not "exactly" like the real thing. I am in Louisiana, and we have a style of music here called "Swamp Pop" and the main instruments are horns and B3. I can pretty much imitate the B3 on B4II, but I have to record everything in different sections, so I can adjust the drawbars with a mouse click. I have been trying to find a B4D, the NI drawbar controller, but no one has them anymore. I have been getting more calls from other bands, and the first thing they always ask is "Do you have a B3?" So thats why I want an M3. Regardless of whether the M2 sounds like a B3, the M3 has the same tonewheel, same sound, and paired with a leslie, sounds amazing. Thats why I would like to get one.

     
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    #14
    gmp
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 14:58:03 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: DigiBiu

    Well,
    I already have NI B4II, and it does sound "like" the real thing, but not "exactly" like the real thing. I am in Louisiana, and we have a style of music here called "Swamp Pop" and the main instruments are horns and B3. I can pretty much imitate the B3 on B4II, but I have to record everything in different sections, so I can adjust the drawbars with a mouse click. I have been trying to find a B4D, the NI drawbar controller, but no one has them anymore. I have been getting more calls from other bands, and the first thing they always ask is "Do you have a B3?" So thats why I want an M3. Regardless of whether the M2 sounds like a B3, the M3 has the same tonewheel, same sound, and paired with a leslie, sounds amazing. Thats why I would like to get one.



    In your situation it does sound like you need the real thing.

    Although you can use any programmable midi controller to change your drawbar settings. I have a studiomix I use for automating my mixes and got this studio mix mapper that was able to map my faders to change the drawbars on my B4. Yes it's a little awkward since the faders are about an inch apart, but it just proves that there are other alternatives possible. The drawbars are controlled by midi numbers 12-20.

    I like that "Swamp Pop" sounds like a fun style of music.

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    bitflipper
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 15:18:36 (permalink)
    Or take out a second mortgage and get one of these.


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    losguy
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 16:07:29 (permalink)
    Let me add something about the Leslie. Part of the "magic" is the 3-D effect of the rotors spnning the sound around. Because of this, even the best Leslie models will at best reproduce the sound of a Leslie through mics (a recorded Leslie). But you can definitely go a long way toward reproducing the effect live, by using a mid/side speaker setup.

    If you get a chance, try running your softsynth or hardware electronic-modeled Hammond through one of these:

    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SFXSSmkII/

    It's hard to describe how much it adds to the illusion of the Leslie effect... it's way better than what you get from just two speakers in stereo. It's not a perfect Leslie, but it's amazingly close to having the sound spinning around, and it does it with no moving parts!

    Of course, this is a stereo amp (basically, it's an electronic M/S encoder, with the speakers arranged as an acoustic M/S decoder, using the free air for the beam focusing). So, you want to feed it the stereo output of your Leslie emulator. Also, if you can, try to set it up with a powered sub when you try it out. The bass is a little weak, but the Spacestation has a subwoofer output built in, which helps.

    Like I say, check it out of you can.

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    #17
    Bonzos Ghost
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 16:22:51 (permalink)
    I had an M3 after downsizing from a C3. Two guys can pick one up and move it, as opposed to 4 guys trying to pick up a C3 and not injuring themselves. If everything works, and you have a real Leslie to hook it up to, then it’ll sound great. Mine sounded fantastic with the hopped up Leslie I had at the time. It’s just a smaller version of a B/C3, A100 etc. The next best thing you can get to one of the big boys. The only thing I found compromising at all with the M3 was the 44 note keyboards as opposed to the full 61 note keyboards on the B/C3.

    You will need a real Leslie to get that sound we all identify with, unless you want to do the Jon Lord - Hammond thru a Marshall amp thing.

    Someone mentioned an M2….similar, but not the same. No percussion on the M2. Gotta have the percussion harmonics to play with. It’s a must have feature for a lot of Hammond patches.
    #18
    lasaxman
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 17:28:18 (permalink)
    Funny I just came across this thread. I JUST ordered a Motion Sound Pro 145 to run NI B4II through. Anyone else doing this? I'll post back how the results come out. Digibiu, how far from New Orleans are you? Are you close to Lafayette?

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    gmp
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/21 17:32:07 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: losguy

    Let me add something about the Leslie. Part of the "magic" is the 3-D effect of the rotors spnning the sound around. Because of this, even the best Leslie models will at best reproduce the sound of a Leslie through mics (a recorded Leslie). But you can definitely go a long way toward reproducing the effect live, by using a mid/side speaker setup.

    If you get a chance, try running your softsynth or hardware electronic-modeled Hammond through one of these:

    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SFXSSmkII/

    It's hard to describe how much it adds to the illusion of the Leslie effect... it's way better than what you get from just two speakers in stereo. It's not a perfect Leslie, but it's amazingly close to having the sound spinning around, and it does it with no moving parts!

    Of course, this is a stereo amp (basically, it's an electronic M/S encoder, with the speakers arranged as an acoustic M/S decoder, using the free air for the beam focusing). So, you want to feed it the stereo output of your Leslie emulator. Also, if you can, try to set it up with a powered sub when you try it out. The bass is a little weak, but the Spacestation has a subwoofer output built in, which helps.

    Like I say, check it out of you can.



    Many years ago a company sold just the top rotor of a Leslie. What a big difference in weight. Theroretically it can work very well, since 90% of the Leslie effect is from the top rotor. Sometimes my lower rotor wasn't spinning and many times I didn't relaize it, but whenever the top rotor wouldn't spin, it was dramatic as in bummer. You could set a Leslie to either fast and slow or fast and stopped. I hated the stopped position and would never use it.

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    DigiBiu
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/22 00:49:31 (permalink)
    Lasaxman,

    Im in Maurice, about 10 minutes from Lafayette. Im sure you can appreciate my wanting a real Hammond

     
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    David Stuckey
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    #21
    lasaxman
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    RE: OT/ Hammond M3 2008/05/22 03:12:57 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: DigiBiu

    Lasaxman,

    Im in Maurice, about 10 minutes from Lafayette. Im sure you can appreciate my wanting a real Hammond

    Yes, I know exactly what you mean. Do you know of Don Rich? I played sax with for about 8 years. He carries a '57 B3 with a 147 Leslie around. What a sound!

    Hey man, if you need some horn tracks for any of your clients let me know! I also have a screaming trumpet player that does alot of session work with me as well. We are the "Bayou Soul Horns". We've also recorded on TK Hulin's new album.

    Take care!

    Jason

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