UnderTow
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/17 16:50:50
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papa, the (in reply to <insert name>) field points to the last poster when you use the "Fast Reply" button.
UnderTow
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papa2004
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/17 16:58:01
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ORIGINAL: UnderTow
papa, the (in reply to <insert name>) field points to the last poster when you use the "Fast Reply" button.
UnderTow
Understood...That is why I don't use that feature and simply wanted to clarify any misunderstandings about my original post...
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zentatonic
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/17 17:02:31
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Could it sound better? That's subjective, but my opinion is a yes. Does it kick a phenomenal amount of ass in spite of the sound? Hell yes it does. Let's face it, for hard rock there's nothing out right now that kicks this amount of balls (I'm not talking about "shock value" or "abrasiveness" - I'm talking about rocking songs) except maybe Opeth. And their new album, despite sounding absolutely pristine and sublime...gets smacked down by Death Magnetic. IMHO again, of course...
post edited by zentatonic - 2008/09/17 17:38:08
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...wicked
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/17 17:46:35
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Thanks for the waveform posts, and the link to the other thread and petition, very interesting!
I can't wait to hear both versions side by side. Should be quite entertaining. And sheesh, if the world has stems of that record available.... Metallica should release them! It worked wonders for NIN.
I can't believe that people all the way up the food chain would let something like this slip through, but I wonder if that's just what they hear as the next level of badass, simply bursting the digital seams of their confines. Can't wait for the pendulum to swing back.
In the meantime, I want to invent a guitar that no matter what string you hit it just produces white noise. I'll be the BEST GUITARIST EVAR!
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
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tcaylor
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/17 17:57:42
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What you see are players who are competent at their instruments and comfortable with the genre, but in every other aspect of songwriting and record-making are really talentless hacks. Second stupidest thing I've heard.............Bordering............ ****ED. Yeah............a band that writes its own material................plays real instruments............sells millions of copies...................stays on top for decades.....................doesn't sample or use Nashville writers..........................possibly one of the all time great performing acts, making alot of the previous rock icons look like a joke, live in concert........Led who? Just some hacks.................. I'm not even a big Metallica fan, but some of these comments unrelated to the mastering of the new album.....................are about as lame as it gets.....maybe envy.............stomach cramps............? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I see your point but your approach is a little overstated with a little too much venom. Selling millions of copies of songs or records is not synonymous with having talent as an artist or a songwriter. I could cite several examples of third grade level talent that makes millions but that's not the point of the OP. I think the idea is to segregate the product from the artist in a discussion related to the production of Metallica's latest CD. JMO
post edited by tcaylor - 2008/09/17 18:00:09
Tom My Soundclick Page Sonar Platinum, AMD FX-4100 Quad Core, 8GB RAM, Win 7, RME Fireface USB, UA LA-610, Dynaudio BM 5A monitors, G&L Asat Classic, Peavy Wolfgang, 1990 Strat Ultra, Alvarez PD-80SC Acoustic
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aaronk
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/17 18:36:54
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OK, time for my naive question of the day --
When I've tried to used Boost 11, it seems to produce a similar effect, i.e., the waveforms clips below 0 dB. This is true anytime the boost increases the input wave into red, and happens even with very small (e.g. 1 dB) boosts. The output waves are, of course, under 0 dB, but show clipping.
What am I missing?
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zungle
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/17 19:02:01
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Selling millions of copies of songs or records is not synonymous with having talent as an artist or a songwriter. Nor do I............Thats whyI made 5 other points in my statement.............. The main point being.......Live...... Metallica is second to none in any genre....they have been the model of consistancy when performing. but that's not the point of the OP. I think the idea is to segregate the product from the artist in a discussion related to the production of Metallica's latest CD I agree on te OP's intent....totally...........The replies however contain mentions of everything from the production to the bands material and talent level. I could cite several examples of third grade level talent that makes millions
And not one of them lasts more than a cup of coffee, let alone a couple decades...but I already mentioned that. 
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j boy
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/17 19:02:07
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I don't think the clipping is being done in software aaronk, they're clipping the A/D converters. At least that's how it's usually done, assuming it's intentionally done that is.
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zungle
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/17 19:09:14
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Yes sir........... But really, you don't want any part of the venom? 
post edited by zungle - 2008/09/17 23:56:27
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Oaf_Topik
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/17 23:32:18
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Gamma Goblin
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 01:02:50
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^^^Very nice!!!! I'm creating my first plug-in tomorrow called VCLIP. But, first I've got to call Rick Rubin to get some expert advice on digital clipping. I'll be right back....... : )
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altima_boy_2001
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 02:03:12
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Just adding another topic to the thread, but does anyone else think that Kirk used an amp sim plugin for a lot of the solos? There seems to be quite of bit of digital "fizzy-ness" in them and he seems to be a user/promoter of NI Guitar Rig...I could point out examples if needed...
I do have to agree that the bass guitar could've been mixed in a bit higher. There's one section in the album during the instrumental where it's just bass and drums and I can barely make out the bass on the 5 or so systems I've listened to it on.
You can use me as your eSoundz referral (altima_boy_2001).
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mikeinFL
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 02:22:16
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ORIGINAL: Danny Danzi
... to me, country music and pop has some of the best production material can have.
agree. most pop country today is now close to what use to be pop, and when you just browse the FM radio and stop on a country station, the production quality stands out. For example Leeanne Rimes "I Need You" is stunning. There are many pop songs of the 60's and 70's that have astonishing production quality.
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groove
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 02:34:22
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Personally, I'm at a loss for what the big deal is about Metallica, at least lately(say the last 5-10 years)... but whatever floats your boat. If you want to hear lousy music in great fidelity, you go, girl. ;p yes I'm just joshing, relax....
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Tom F
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 05:14:26
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my personal opinion about metallica is that the drummer is an ****, the singer is a drunken redneck that cant sing (i remember very old concerts without autotune and i remember some concerts with autotune that cher could have sung), the new bassplayer looks like he is in the wrong band because he jumps around like metallica was a metal hiphop crossover-band and the only good album they ever made was "justice for all" and eventuylly those before - yet they were pretty primitive
now i now that there seem to be millions of metallica fans out there - yet i cant understand it - btw..bad taste is a very common thing and it wouldnt be statistically be very outstanding to have some million of people who just dont get it...
again FOR MY PERSONAL TASTE metallica is one of the most overrated bands ever - musically even megadeath kicks their butt....
if you like metal/trash metal there are /have been sooooo many better bands out there - metallica just are more likely to act commercially...to get publicity...
...trying to be polite... quick temper...trying to be...
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altima_boy_2001
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 06:17:40
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now i now that there seem to be millions of Beatles fans out there - yet i cant understand it - btw..bad taste is a very common thing and it wouldnt be statistically be very outstanding to have some million of people who just don't get it...
again FOR MY PERSONAL TASTE The Beatles is one of the most overrated bands ever Exactly my thoughts... Back on topic... One of the best ways to deal with the cognitive dissonance of early (good) Metallica and later (horrible) Metallica [post Black album] is to think of them as 2 separate bands that happen to have the same name. The newer band merely covers the other band's songs and this is easily proven by the fact that the cover band can make the music sound pretty dang close, but the singer just doesn't compare to the original no matter how hard he tries. Meanwhile, the cover band occasionally injects an original song or two only to have the crowd tell them to play another cover. I do, however, put Garage Inc. in the list of enjoyable Metallica albums and think that they could make quite a killing by just releasing a new album of cover songs in the heavy style of Metallica every couple years. Repeatedly painting the Black album sound onto other people's material could be a lucrative, long-lasting venture IMO.
You can use me as your eSoundz referral (altima_boy_2001).
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zentatonic
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 07:26:41
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Opinions are truly like a#$holes...
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SteveStrummerUK
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 08:35:35
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Got mine today - gotta say, it sounds good to me!
It doesn't sound overdone to my ears but then again maybe that's what we're being conditioned to expect, I'd like to hear the mix some have mentioned from Guitar Hero to compare though.
I can also see what some of you are saying about the bass but for a different reason - the low end is there but to my ears there's not a lot of treble left in it so smaller speakers have got nothing to play with. On my hi-fi speakers it's perfect.
BTW Tom, I agree with you about Megadeth being a much better band.
Steve
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Tom F
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 09:44:11
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ORIGINAL: altima_boy_2001
now i now that there seem to be millions of Beatles fans out there - yet i cant understand it - btw..bad taste is a very common thing and it wouldnt be statistically be very outstanding to have some million of people who just don't get it...
again FOR MY PERSONAL TASTE The Beatles is one of the most overrated bands ever
Exactly my thoughts...
Back on topic...
One of the best ways to deal with the cognitive dissonance of early (good) Metallica and later (horrible) Metallica [post Black album] is to think of them as 2 separate bands that happen to have the same name. The newer band merely covers the other band's songs and this is easily proven by the fact that the cover band can make the music sound pretty dang close, but the singer just doesn't compare to the original no matter how hard he tries. Meanwhile, the cover band occasionally injects an original song or two only to have the crowd tell them to play another cover.
I do, however, put Garage Inc. in the list of enjoyable Metallica albums and think that they could make quite a killing by just releasing a new album of cover songs in the heavy style of Metallica every couple years. Repeatedly painting the Black album sound onto other people's material could be a lucrative, long-lasting venture IMO.
somehow you are right - somehow you are not in the specific beatles case...there are a few bands that just are beyond criticism (i am not a great beatles fan) but the beatles are definitely in the all time 100 of music....so if you had put "ironmaiden" (a band i really loved til 1989) i would have said yes - but the beatles - thats just a heresy
...trying to be polite... quick temper...trying to be...
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Tom F
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 09:47:04
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ORIGINAL: zentatonic
Opinions are truly like a#$holes...
what does that mean? would you say that an opinion is a muscle that hinders you to crap in your trousers??? hahahahaha
...trying to be polite... quick temper...trying to be...
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Tom F
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 09:50:51
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BTW Tom, I agree with you about Megadeth being a much better band. thanks for the flowers steve actually i was trying to turn this in a great "rant n´flame" but looks like it didnt work ...  greetz from rome - im am here in holiday and the weather is so nice that i am totally tired of the heat that insted of visiting roman culture i just sleep in the appartment and post in the cake forum thats nerdy ....i guess
...trying to be polite... quick temper...trying to be...
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GMGM
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 09:55:37
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ust adding another topic to the thread, but does anyone else think that Kirk used an amp sim plugin for a lot of the solos? There seems to be quite of bit of digital "fizzy-ness" in them and he seems to be a user/promoter of NI Guitar Rig...I could point out examples if needed... I blame the man himself. He's always had a pretty shrill tone IMHO. By contrast, I've heard many Amp Sim recordings that sound amazing (I personally use the Line 6 XT Live in the studio). I think he just likes that scooped midrange, too-much-gain, too-much-wah kind of tone. Before I get flamed, it should be noted that I'm not a metal fan/player, so my opinions on what makes a great metal guitar sound are meaningless. And most metal guys would probably hate my tone also.
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zungle
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 10:44:01
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I agree with you about Megadeth being a much better band. No doubt here that Megadeth is a better band ............ to bad they've been a non factor in metal for 10years+.........
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bitflipper
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 10:55:04
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OK, time for my naive question of the day --
When I've tried to used Boost 11, it seems to produce a similar effect, i.e., the waveforms clips below 0 dB. This is true anytime the boost increases the input wave into red, and happens even with very small (e.g. 1 dB) boosts. The output waves are, of course, under 0 dB, but show clipping.
What am I missing? Yes, a hard-driven limiter does indeed produce clipping and the associated distortion. The clipped region may not technically qualify as a digital "over" because the sample values never actually reach 32767 or -32768. But the harmonic distortion is still there. Boost11 will do it, as will all limiters. Transparent limiters try to anticipate when a signal is going to hit the ceiling and gradually reduce the gain leading up to that point, and gradually restoring the gain afterward. It's the smooth transition that makes them "transparent". When used gently, Boost11 can be quite transparent. When you distort a guitar by overdriving a triode, you're doing something similar. But you're not just slicing the top off the waveform, you're pushing the tube into its nonlinear region, a gradual process similar to what a limiter does. Although ultimately you are generating harmonics, you're making a smooth transition from linear to clipping. The harmonics that are generated are mathematically related to the fundamental frequency, which makes them pleasing. When you clip by pushing samples up to 111111111111111111111111, it's not a smooth transition. It sudden and it generates overtones that are not harmonically related to the material and are therefore unpleasant artifacts. Not at all like the distortion you intentionally generate by overdriving an analog circuit or by gently flattening the waveform with a digital limiter. So while it may seem odd to be criticizing a band that uses heavy distortion for producing a distorted recording, it's a legitimate gripe. They've inserted non-harmonic overtones that detract from the intentional distortion that many find quite pleasing.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Manolo
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 11:07:26
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ORIGINAL: SteveStrummerUK
It doesn't sound overdone to my ears but then again maybe that's what we're being conditioned to expect, I'd like to hear the mix some have mentioned from Guitar Hero to compare though.
Here : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I&fmt=18
RME Fireface UC | Sonar Platinum x64/Windows 10 Pro x64| Superior 2.0 with all Toontrack soundbanks, Eastwest Complete Composer used in Kontakt 5, Ozone 5 | VS-700C, BCF 2000
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SteveStrummerUK
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 11:32:10
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ORIGINAL: Manolo
ORIGINAL: SteveStrummerUK
It doesn't sound overdone to my ears but then again maybe that's what we're being conditioned to expect, I'd like to hear the mix some have mentioned from Guitar Hero to compare though.
Here : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I&fmt=18
Thanks Manolo - all other things being equal with that test, there does appear to be a big difference in the sound; it sort of 'comes to life' when it changes to the GH version. I guess we can now assume that it was definitely mixed like that for the CD, with everyone from the band down realizing what they were deliberately setting out to accomplish. Steve
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Marah Mag
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 12:54:55
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ORIGINAL: Manolo
Here : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I&fmt=18
Very interesting video (as is the whole thread.) Thanks for posting that. Would love to hear/see more like that. Is there a definitive accounting of why and how the two different mixes came to be? Intentional? Accidental? I have to say though that I've never had much use for Metallica, so I kind of agree with Tom and Groove. Metallica always struck me as bascially a boyband, only with guitars, volume, sneers instead of smiles, forced darkness instead of forced romance, substance abuse problems they don't bother trying to cover up (but still eventually come clean about), and a series of genre-safe poses. Lars was kind of cute. But all boybands have at least one cute one. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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aaronk
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 13:41:28
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Yes, a hard-driven limiter does indeed produce clipping and the associated distortion. The clipped region may not technically qualify as a digital "over" because the sample values never actually reach 32767 or -32768. But the harmonic distortion is still there. Boost11 will do it, as will all limiters.
Transparent limiters try to anticipate when a signal is going to hit the ceiling and gradually reduce the gain leading up to that point, and gradually restoring the gain afterward. It's the smooth transition that makes them "transparent". When used gently, Boost11 can be quite transparent. Nice explanation, thanks.
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GMGM
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 13:49:53
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Hilarious!!!
MM - That is probably the best assessment of the band I think I've ever heard. I'd have to say that it's also my chief complaint about most metal, nu-metal, modern day "punk", etc... I just know that if James Hetfield had a time machine in 1989, he'd come to the future & kick his own @ss for shopping at Armani. I'm waiting for the Lars Ulrich Spring Collection to go on sale at WalMart now.
In the end, all of our beloved musicians have some sort of image though. And usually, it is full of it's own contradictions. I'm sure we're all guilty to some extent.
Some of my favorites...
Runner Up: Scenesters who spend countless hours & dollars so they can appear to have "no image".
Winner: Goth/EMO kids at the mall. Shouldn't they be in a cold dark & wet basement somewhere listening to the Cure? Eating at Cinnabon just doesn't say death & sadness to me.
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bitflipper
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RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/18 14:18:23
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Eating at Cinnabon just doesn't say death & sadness to me. Of course, pop music has always been about posturing and image, and pop music fans have always sought to emulate entertainers as a way to show their group identification. It's just that in the last decade or so the marketing fabrications have become less subtle and more blatantly phony, with all the young fans faithfully in tow. When my 16-year-old grandson comes over with his purple hair, spiked wrist bands, chains and carefully-ripped black-on-black clothes, I mostly see a kid who is woefully ignorant of how he's being manipulated by pop culture marketers. All I have to do is pull out an old photo of me in my bellbottoms and fringe vest to put things in perspective.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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