Gamma Goblin
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 56
- Joined: 2008/09/10 22:13:24
- Status: offline
OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
I just wanted to say that over the last few years of following these forums I've learned so much more than what any book could teach me (except Scott's book of course). It's the real world, practical, every day stuff that really makes a difference in the studio and that's what you fine folks here have provided through the years to the music community. Thanks to you all for that! That being said, who here has listened to the new Metallica album? The Mixing Engineer absolutely killed every aspect of what a good album should sound like by over compressing and brick-wall limiting every song. I think the "loudness wars" have finally gone over the edge and hopefully this album backfiring sonically will keep Engineers in the future from repeating these kind of mistakes. If anyone here has listened to this album and knows what I'm talking about I would love to read your comments. http://damn-games.blogspot.com/2008/09/death-magnetic-guitar-hero-mix.html Cheers!
post edited by Gamma Goblin - 2008/09/16 01:07:45
|
mattplaysguitar
Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1992
- Joined: 2006/01/02 00:27:42
- Location: Gold Coast, Australia
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 01:39:38
(permalink)
One of the biggest problems I find with all these over compressed tracks these days is intersample clips. For those that don't know, intersample clipping is when the waveform itself is not actually clipping, but once it gets to your speakers, because it was so compressed to begin with, it still clips. Something like that. I don't know if extreme compression actually does cause it, but either way, you can reduce intersample clips by cutting your total volume by 1dB, giving your amplifier some headroom to play with. 1dB is not really much quieter and much better than the sound of clipping coming through your tweeters. Ozone3 says you only need to cut it by 0.3dB to prevent (usually), but I have found 0.8 necessary to clean up some albums. 1dB to be safe.
I have heard the album. I agree, it sounds bad! Listening to the high end, all your hear is clipping! Turns out it ain't intersample clipping that is causing much of the clipping you hear in it (I tried lowering it), just way too heavily compressed. Very interesting read on the blog by the way! I can see that other album being popular! These mastering engineers are very talented though. To compress it that much and still make all the instruments still stand out is very skilful. Imagine if you tried, it would sound much much worse if you got it that loud. I think that I have read somewhere that most/many? mastering engineers don't like to compress the albums so much, it's just that they are told to by the record companies and the producers. They want a job, and to keep their job, they have to destroy music! Kinda ironic ain't it. Well that's what I have read anyway..
Thing is, most consumers are not going to know. They listen on laptop computers and ipod buds and are happy for the extra volume they can get from these compressed mixes. They don't even notice the constant clipping and distortion. Sure, if you compared a nicely mastered version of this album to the public one at same volumes to them, I'm sure they would pick the difference instantly, but to be honest, I don't think it would really bother most people all that much anyway, which is a shame. So many people I try and force the loudness wars onto and how terrible it is to our music, and time and time again they just really don't give a s@#t. They would rather not talk about it and just listen to some music. Tis a shame.
There have been ideas I have seen before about all albums should start coming out with two versions, a dynamic version and a non dynamic version. Thing is, to most people, they would put them both on and not move the volume knob and go "ohh, the dynamic one sounds really weak and crappy, I like the other one better, it's louder and more full in sound". Because they don't bother to touch the volume knob. If they listened to them at the same volume, then maybe they would understand...
Ok, I think I'm DEFINITELY procrastinating now... Time to get back to my assignment...
|
Lanceindastudio
Max Output Level: -29 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4604
- Joined: 2004/01/22 02:28:30
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 05:14:35
(permalink)
problem is, the gear that people use these days isnt as powerful, so a lot of time, the song needs to be very loud because their volume knob doesnt go that loud...
Asus P8Z77-V LE PLUS Motherboard i7 3770k CPU 32 gigs RAM Presonus AudioBox iTwo Windows 10 64 bit, SONAR PLATINUM 64 bit Lots of plugins and softsynths and one shot samples, loops Gauge ECM-87, MCA SP-1, Alesis AM51 Presonus Eureka Mackie HR824's and matching subwoofer
|
mgh
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8594
- Joined: 2007/05/10 05:15:56
- Location: betwixt and between
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 05:27:51
(permalink)
To me the mix sounds like it's old-skool thrash destined for vinyl - very upper-mid heavy - maybe it sounds best on that 5xLP version, huh?
|
tazman
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2435
- Joined: 2003/11/13 13:01:40
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 07:41:44
(permalink)
Another casualty of the loudness war is Bruce Springsteen's latest album, "Magic". I used to be a Springsteen's fan, but this last album was absolutely unlistenable. I bought it and listened to it once. Som eof the songs may be great, but my ears can't stand it.
Same goes for Velvet Revolver's album (whatever the name was). JUst a mush of overdriven guitars and cymbals!!!
|
Danny Danzi
Moderator
- Total Posts : 5810
- Joined: 2006/10/05 13:42:39
- Location: DanziLand, NJ
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 08:18:29
(permalink)
Gamma, I'll give ya my take. I'm not a Rick Rubin fan, so that was pretty much a strike against them before I heard the album. What lept out at me instantly, was the lack of bass guitar in the mix and the horrible drum sound. I thought the rhythm guitars sounded pretty good and the songs themselves definitely showed they were trying to get back to their roots. The mono, up the middle lead guitar was very lame sounding as well and it was way too naked for Kirk's playing in my opinion. I've heard better mixes from the fine folks on this site to be honest. Other than the rhythm guitar tones, nothing on this album was really that great in my opinion. I didn't hear anything super slammed on this to be quite honest. I didn't fire any of the tunes up in my editor to look at the numbers. Though I can hear a bit of clipping at times, it doesn't sound like an overly squashed mix to my ears. The worst I've heard this year were the last Nickelback album, and the latest Motley Crue. Crue takes the cake for intense squashage, lack of dynamics, and production they should be ashamed of....considering some of the songs on that are actually quite good and I'm not, and never have been, a Crue fan. I think Metallica are on the right track though...and maybe the best is yet to come. I've never been a fan of their music, but always appreciated them for helping pave the way to acceptable radio metal. You know it's funny, most of the newer engineers I speak to, seem to be taught not to experiment and add any life to a mix with effects etc. I hear "that's to polished, that's too effected, that's too this" etc. That leaves them with what, raw tracks and compression? LMAO!! I just don't get it. Some people may disagree with me, but to me, country music and pop has some of the best production material can have. I can appreciate something that is raw and great as much as I can appreciate something that's been processed and majorly produced. Why people down one over the other is beyond me. I recently made a new engineer friend of mine experiment with a slightly gated verb on his snare. He's been taught it's taboo and "so 80's" to use something like that. So I said "just try it in moderation, you don't have to go for a 1989 Bonjovi snare for God sakes....just make the thing have a bit of sustain and help it crack a bit better." He tried it and loves it now...next step is to get him to produce vox a little more wet. It seems like their rule of thumb is to use effects to where you can barely hear them. In my opinion, why use the effect if you can't hear it? Granted, we don't need to make ANY effects dominate to where the color the raw energy so much it just sounds bad, but it sure is nice to produce something and make it come to life with a few extra tools of the trade. I felt this is what Metallica could have done as well. They are still heavy hitters in the industry and though they may want to come off raw sounding, this may have been a bit too raw. I say if you got the production tricks, flaunt them. Worry about pulling it off live when you have to or just don't record anything that can't be duplicated. I produce the heck out of my stuff, and I've always pulled everything off live. I dug a few tunes on this album but I doubt I'll be playing it much....it's just not for me. Just my opinion though. :)
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2008/09/16 08:23:43
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
|
Sub Audio
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 99
- Joined: 2004/07/08 17:49:15
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 08:18:52
(permalink)
I drastically reduced my CD buying after I bought Depeche Mode's "Playing With Angels" album. The songs are great but I can't listen to it all the way through, the mastering was dreadful. I've pushed my own mixes too hot previously (through inexperience with mixing) and am now making a conscious effort to let them breathe a bit more. http://www.myspace.com/rikinrunstop
Always thinking 'bout the situation. Never seem to want to find the time
|
DW_Mike
Max Output Level: -6 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6907
- Joined: 2006/11/29 18:06:40
- Location: The arm-pit of the good 'ol US...New Jersey
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 09:21:26
(permalink)
Pick a song, any song off the new Metallica album and import it into Sonar. Now if you watch the Main meters you'll notice something, THEY DON'T MOVE.....EVER  . Not one sliver of a hint of dynamics left to this album anywhere. This really does have to stop. Mike
Sonar X3 ~ Scarlett 18i6 ~ Home Build DAW
GA-Z77X-UD5H
Intel i7 3770k 4.2GHz
32GB RAM Crucial Ballistix Elite (4x8)
2x Samsung 250GB SSD
1TB WD Black HDD @ 7200RPM 6Gb/s 64MB
Corsair H80i Liquid cooler
Noctua Silent Fans ~ 3x120mm ~ 1x140mm
Seasonic Platinum 760w PSU
Windows 7 Pro 64Bit.
|
Hansenhaus
Max Output Level: -56.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1866
- Joined: 2004/06/29 16:18:03
- Location: Delray Beach, FL.
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 09:23:35
(permalink)
St. Anger was horrible as well. There is no excuse for this BS and I'm totally sick of it. Eric
post edited by Hansenhaus - 2008/09/16 09:26:16
|
Doc_Hollingsworth
Max Output Level: -52.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2289
- Joined: 2008/03/02 22:25:01
- Location: Boise, Idaho
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 10:26:18
(permalink)
I sat down and listened to this one with the wife. She has been a fan since the more commercial black album as where I used to listen to the guys back when they still had Mustaine. All I had to say after about the third track was oh no, what happened? Did they let Lars and James back on the board? It sent me right back to ...And Justice For All, which to some extent had some of the same problems. I heard the band was more involved in the mix down and final cut and it shows.
Doc MacBook Pro 15.4 Retina (mid 2015) Focusrite Clarett 8PreX & OctoPre Logic Pro X 10.2.4/Reason 9.2/Pro Tools 12.7 Long haired dachshund - requisite studio dog (no short hairs need apply - read the sign)
|
plainfaced
Max Output Level: -59 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1617
- Joined: 2004/08/25 08:52:16
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 10:28:52
(permalink)
I hope the new AC/DC album is better! 
Sonar Professional | Reason 8 | Propellerheads Balance | Windows 10
|
s_barber
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 390
- Joined: 2006/02/03 17:34:20
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 10:31:16
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: tazman
Another casualty of the loudness war is Bruce Springsteen's latest album, "Magic". I used to be a Springsteen's fan, but this last album was absolutely unlistenable. I bought it and listened to it once. Som eof the songs may be great, but my ears can't stand it.
Same goes for Velvet Revolver's album (whatever the name was). JUst a mush of overdriven guitars and cymbals!!!
Well, I thought the EXACT same thing when I listened to "Magic". I bought it and was going to use it as a reference CD but there was no way when I mixed/mastered my CD. Listen HERE. A friend of mine and I tried to listen to it again last weekend but alas....it still sounded the same. Espicially "Radio Nowhere". The first 4 or 5 songs sounded like everything was squashed into a can with reverb. Right again....I think the last couple songs were finally tame enough to enjoy. It really is a shame.
Listem Here. My web site http://www.lamejohnnycreek.com/. Dell Laptop, 1 GB, 160 GB FW, EMU 1616M, M-Audio 88, Sonar 6 PE, Ozone, CD Arc, EZ, Dim, Dahlia Violin, G & L Guitar.
|
bunkaroo
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 422
- Joined: 2004/01/16 14:12:28
- Location: Chicago West 'Burbs
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 10:37:49
(permalink)
Unless I am blind I can't find a mastering credit on the liner notes. Are we to assume it was mastered by the same people who mixed it?
Also agree with the above - why get a monster bass player like Trujillo if you're just going to bury him in the mix? What a waste.
|
plainfaced
Max Output Level: -59 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1617
- Joined: 2004/08/25 08:52:16
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 10:39:15
(permalink)
I just have to say, Im a fan of heavily compressed masters.. On certain tracks that is. I really do like the sound 
Sonar Professional | Reason 8 | Propellerheads Balance | Windows 10
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 11:00:29
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Gamma Goblin
I just wanted to say that over the last few years of following these forums I've learned so much more than what any book could teach me (except Scott's book of course). It's the real world, practical, every day stuff that really makes a difference in the studio and that's what you fine folks here have provided through the years to the music community. Thanks to you all for that!
That being said, who here has listened to the new Metallica album? The Mixing Engineer absolutely killed every aspect of what a good album should sound like by over compressing and brick-wall limiting every song. I think the "loudness wars" have finally gone over the edge and hopefully this album backfiring sonically will keep Engineers in the future from repeating these kind of mistakes. If anyone here has listened to this album and knows what I'm talking about I would love to read your comments.
http://damn-games.blogspot.com/2008/09/death-magnetic-guitar-hero-mix.html
Cheers!
You think that's bad.. you could (almost) expect that on a Metallica album, the first one I noticed that got "smashered" (I just coined that word... but you can use it) was Rush - Vapor Trails. Rush is music that lives on dynamics and most of the content on Vapor Trials is clipped waves. It's so bad that if you calculated how much of the music is clipped off you are only getting about 70% of the content when you buy the CD.... the rest is missing (flat line). Watch how loud you play that stuff, most tweeters were not designed for constant clipping and the voice coil could overheat... I'm just saying.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 11:11:00
(permalink)
If you haven't seen the "Some Kind of Monster" documentary video about Metallica, I highly recommend it.
Most of the press on this video dwelt on the band's psychological issues and group therapy. That part's pretty lame - a bunch of whiny, overpaid rock stars gazing at their navels.
Far more interesting is the candid look at the creative process. If I were a member of that band, I would be embarrassed.
What you see are players who are competent at their instruments and comfortable with the genre, but in every other aspect of songwriting and record-making are really talentless hacks. If they did in fact mix and master this record themselves, that would explain a lot.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 11:28:09
(permalink)
There is a rumor floating around that the loudness wars are really a record company marketing ploy to be able to sell the album again in the future (at least one more time) as "remastered" for those who want the actual HiFi mix. They can't count on a format change again from CD to something else like they did with cassette and LP to be able to get additional revenue from each album so they are making the first edition as bad as possible so they have the option of coming out with an "improved" version (the real mix) later so they can sell it again.
And if there is a new format they can claim that the CD sounded bad because of "limitations" in the CD format and that you should buy the new format because it allows them to finally deliver the full dynamic range of the master.
|
Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 11:43:14
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: ohhey
There is a rumor floating around that the loudness wars are really a record company marketing ploy to be able to sell the album again in the future (at least one more time) as "remastered" for those who want the actual HiFi mix. They can't count on a format change again from CD to something else like they did with cassette and LP to be able to get additional revenue from each album so they are making the first edition as bad as possible so they have the option of coming out with an "improved" version (the real mix) later so they can sell it again.
And if there is a new format they can claim that the CD sounded bad because of "limitations" in the CD format and that you should buy the new format because it allows them to finally deliver the full dynamic range of the master.
Ah! in other words, rank profiteering. Can't say I'm totally shocked. Another fine example of record company non-ethics.
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 12:14:24
(permalink)
There is a rumor floating around that the loudness wars are really a record company marketing ploy to be able to sell the album again in the future (at least one more time) as "remastered" for those who want the actual HiFi mix. Consumer conditioning. Sort of like charging $4.50 for a gallon of gas so that $3.50 will seem like a bargain? And if there is a new format they can claim that the CD sounded bad because of "limitations" in the CD format and that you should buy the new format because it allows them to finally deliver the full dynamic range of the master. Hilarious, when you think about it. I remember when AC/DC first came out on CD, to much derision at the time - the idea that metal music could somehow benefit from the increased dynamic range of the new format. Of course, even the pop metal music of that era sounds dynamic by today's standards.
post edited by bitflipper - 2008/09/16 12:18:40
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
AJ_0000
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 738
- Joined: 2007/05/05 01:32:03
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 12:15:50
(permalink)
I downloaded it off of iTunes. Since I don't have the CD I may not be getting the full picture, but there is definitely some distortion going on (and I don't mean the guitars). I'm not convinced it's all limiting, though. It almost sounds more like they're clipping the converters or the console. I seem to remember Rick Rubin doing a lot of that crap in the past. You can get a squared off waveform with a limiter, but you also get it by running a signal ten times too hot through an input until it melts down. I've done it by accident. Sounds like they were doing it on purpose. I've never been big on metal, but I had friends who were when I was a kid, and I remember being subjected to Master of Puppets and ...And Justice For All. They are definitely laying down some old school business on this album.
post edited by AJ_0000 - 2008/09/16 12:20:19
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 14:20:30
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: AJ_0000
I downloaded it off of iTunes. Since I don't have the CD I may not be getting the full picture, but there is definitely some distortion going on (and I don't mean the guitars). I'm not convinced it's all limiting, though. It almost sounds more like they're clipping the converters or the console. I seem to remember Rick Rubin doing a lot of that crap in the past. You can get a squared off waveform with a limiter, but you also get it by running a signal ten times too hot through an input until it melts down. I've done it by accident. Sounds like they were doing it on purpose.
I've never been big on metal, but I had friends who were when I was a kid, and I remember being subjected to Master of Puppets and ...And Justice For All. They are definitely laying down some old school business on this album.
I don't think we are talking about distortion or clipping inside the content but below 0 on the CD. When you look at the wave in a wav editor you can see it going all the way up to zero and clipping off. Some of the clips are as long as a half second of nothing but flat line. That's not a result of one track in the mix, that is the entire mix going beyond the 16bits available on the CD. If you zoom out it looks like one big block of color flat on both sides. If a CD had been made like that back in the early days of CD it would have been recalled as defective (not within the red book spec). But today the CD is being sold like that, and considered "correct".
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 15:11:06
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: bitflipper
There is a rumor floating around that the loudness wars are really a record company marketing ploy to be able to sell the album again in the future (at least one more time) as "remastered" for those who want the actual HiFi mix.
Consumer conditioning. Sort of like charging $4.50 for a gallon of gas so that $3.50 will seem like a bargain?
And if there is a new format they can claim that the CD sounded bad because of "limitations" in the CD format and that you should buy the new format because it allows them to finally deliver the full dynamic range of the master.
Hilarious, when you think about it. I remember when AC/DC first came out on CD, to much derision at the time - the idea that metal music could somehow benefit from the increased dynamic range of the new format. Of course, even the pop metal music of that era sounds dynamic by today's standards.
I predict there will be audiophile magazine reviews of those re-releases thanking the record company for being so kind to re-release the album and claiming that studio technology must have improved a lot since 2008 to make such a good sounding mix possible. LOL !  It's the perfect crime !!... customers thanking you for ripping them off. This is clear payback for the old Napster days. In fact, these new masters are great copy protection. If you try to MP3 those CDs you get total trash. The MP3 encoder works by removing stuff that you would not hear based on masking from louder stuff. When all elements of the mix are loud and in the forground the process breaks down.
post edited by ohhey - 2008/09/16 15:15:52
|
Mooch4056
Max Output Level: -0.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7494
- Joined: 2005/02/19 17:40:35
- Location: Chicago
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 15:23:15
(permalink)
is this kinda liek the 80's marketing scam that the coca cola company did.. came out with new coke... which was awful .. then hurry up and discontinued it and them re-name the old or good stuff "classic coke"... I think that was some sorta marketing scam too from what i remeber .. but it worked and I remeber resding they made a ton of money from "classic coke" (shrugs)
From Now On Call Me Conquistador!
Donate to the cure Bapu Foundation Email: mooch4056@gmail.com for more info
|
...wicked
Max Output Level: -1.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7360
- Joined: 2003/12/18 01:00:56
- Location: Seattle
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 15:37:40
(permalink)
I'd like to see waveforms. Can anyone screen grab something from the new record versus something from Master of Puppets?
Pro-rec did this using samples from Rush's catalog and you could clearly chart the over-compression as the years went on.
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
|
AJ_0000
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 738
- Joined: 2007/05/05 01:32:03
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 15:53:47
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: ohhey
ORIGINAL: AJ_0000
I downloaded it off of iTunes. Since I don't have the CD I may not be getting the full picture, but there is definitely some distortion going on (and I don't mean the guitars). I'm not convinced it's all limiting, though. It almost sounds more like they're clipping the converters or the console. I seem to remember Rick Rubin doing a lot of that crap in the past. You can get a squared off waveform with a limiter, but you also get it by running a signal ten times too hot through an input until it melts down. I've done it by accident. Sounds like they were doing it on purpose.
I've never been big on metal, but I had friends who were when I was a kid, and I remember being subjected to Master of Puppets and ...And Justice For All. They are definitely laying down some old school business on this album.
I don't think we are talking about distortion or clipping inside the content but below 0 on the CD. When you look at the wave in a wav editor you can see it going all the way up to zero and clipping off. Some of the clips are as long as a half second of nothing but flat line. That's not a result of one track in the mix, that is the entire mix going beyond the 16bits available on the CD. If you zoom out it looks like one big block of color flat on both sides.
If a CD had been made like that back in the early days of CD it would have been recalled as defective (not within the red book spec). But today the CD is being sold like that, and considered "correct".
It's possible they may have clipped the master bus or some other step in the stereo process. The reason I question it is because usually an extreme limiter will dull the high end, but this seems to be the opposite--extremely harsh distortion in the high frequencies. There is another possibility though, which is that they did crush it with the limiter, and then the mastering engineer tried to bring back the top with extreme EQ. Whatever it is, it will make your ears bleed.
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 16:03:31
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: AJ_0000
........
It's possible they may have clipped the master bus or some other step in the stereo process. The reason I question it is because usually an extreme limiter will dull the high end, but this seems to be the opposite--extremely harsh distortion in the high frequencies. There is another possibility though, which is that they did crush it with the limiter, and then the mastering engineer tried to bring back the top with extreme EQ. Whatever it is, it will make your ears bleed.
If the wave if clipped at zero on the CD there is no way to tell now, anything above that is just gone. Now, if they had droped it down a half db before it went to CD then yes, you would be able to tell if it was like that in the 24bit master or if it happened going to 16bit. But they would have to leave a gap between the top of the wave and the "wall" on the CD so you could determine that. The CDs I've seen are all the way to the wall, so there is no way to tell when and where it happened or what might or might not have been up there.... it's just not there. Really doesn't matter, even if there were a gap it would still play the same on the CD player and cause your amp and tweeters to try to reproduce the sharp edges of the clips..... not good for the gear or your ear.
|
Jim Roseberry
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9871
- Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
- Location: Ohio
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 16:04:21
(permalink)
Rush is music that lives on dynamics and most of the content on Vapor Trials is clipped waves. Great example of poor mixing/mastering It absolutely ruins the album for me...
|
higain_guitar
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 294
- Joined: 2004/01/12 23:56:32
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 16:16:47
(permalink)
The new metallica album is definitely too loud, but overall it is way better than St. Anger. The loudness wars have to stop. I'm a proponent of Bob Katz K-system...
|
AJ_0000
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 738
- Joined: 2007/05/05 01:32:03
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 16:20:07
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: ohhey
ORIGINAL: AJ_0000
........
It's possible they may have clipped the master bus or some other step in the stereo process. The reason I question it is because usually an extreme limiter will dull the high end, but this seems to be the opposite--extremely harsh distortion in the high frequencies. There is another possibility though, which is that they did crush it with the limiter, and then the mastering engineer tried to bring back the top with extreme EQ. Whatever it is, it will make your ears bleed.
If the wave if clipped at zero on the CD there is no way to tell now, anything above that is just gone. Now, if they had droped it down a half db before it went to CD then yes, you would be able to tell if it was like that in the 24bit master or if it happened going to 16bit. But they would have to leave a gap between the top of the wave and the "wall" on the CD so you could determine that. The CDs I've seen are all the way to the wall, so there is no way to tell when and where it happened or what might or might not have been up there.... it's just not there.
Really doesn't matter, even if there were a gap it would still play the same on the CD player and cause your amp and tweeters to try to reproduce the sharp edges of the clips..... not good for the gear or your ear.
Just so we're clear...there is a difference between a heavy-handed limiter that comes in under 0 (which you hear a lot of if you turn on Top 40 radio) and what may be the case here, which is the whole album going over 0 at some step in the process.
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: OT: Metallica Mixing Engineer (What was he thinking???)
2008/09/16 16:37:28
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry
Rush is music that lives on dynamics and most of the content on Vapor Trials is clipped waves.
Great example of poor mixing/mastering
It absolutely ruins the album for me...
That was the exact album that started the conversation about loudness wars, it's the poster child. When the Limp Bizkit CD came out it was worse but there was no outcry over that one. When it happened to Rush... people cried foul.
|