OT: New Rush CD and others

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Ognis
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 04:03:55 (permalink)
Has anyone heard The Raconteurs cd ? Recorded and mixed at a studio here in Memphis, and I think mastered at Sony. I think that it's one of the best cd's I've heard in a long time. I looked at a wav fourm of one of the tracks, and it looked normalized, and like it would be a little too loud, but doesn't sound either too loud or normalized to me when listening to it. The range sounds great to me, the highs are crisp, the kicks kick, and the mids have all the presence you'd want. Of course, maybe one of you that's been in this longer, and is more experienced than I am, will say, you didn't think it was mixed/mastered well, but if so please let me know why. I know, and of course have heard what you all are talking about here, but I just wanted to say that The Raconteurs cd, to me at least, sounds great, and it's new, so maybe not all hope is lost.

(Then again, it might just be that The Raconteurs is the only band I've heard that I liked since the 90's )
#61
musicade
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 07:02:01 (permalink)
The thing with downloads is they can sound good to. You can have a good sounding iTunes track if it's engineered well from the start. I would love to see Apple start offering higher fidelity downloads but the space required for that is probabably not worth it. However, they should at least offer it with the high profile artist. I would pay $15.00 for an uncompressed downloadable album.


Agreed, some downloads can sound good too, depending on the format and bit rate. As for paying $15 happily for an uncompressed download? No thanks! I generally feel that the pricing of downloads is HUGELY inflated. Look at the production and distribution costs for the different media and weigh it up - pressing, quality control, manufacturing, distribution, art work printing and manufacture, warehousing etc etc.... with electronic formats you create the file once and pay for bandwidth. Who is making the extra profit here? Not the artist that is for sure.

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Blackwaters End
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 08:08:48 (permalink)
There should be a law that those waveform snapshots (like on the Death of Dynamic Range site) should be included on every CD sold in the U.S. People would start asking questions. It would be like the nutritional info required on foods...

#63
ohhey
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 10:24:53 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Blackwaters End

There should be a law that those waveform snapshots (like on the Death of Dynamic Range site) should be included on every CD sold in the U.S. People would start asking questions. It would be like the nutritional info required on foods...




That is a fantastic idea ! Also, there should be a law that no waveforms can clip. All CDs should include 100% of the music, not just the lower 99% of it.
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ohhey
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 12:03:40 (permalink)
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Hansenhaus
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 13:49:20 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: musicade

The thing with downloads is they can sound good to. You can have a good sounding iTunes track if it's engineered well from the start. I would love to see Apple start offering higher fidelity downloads but the space required for that is probabably not worth it. However, they should at least offer it with the high profile artist. I would pay $15.00 for an uncompressed downloadable album.


Agreed, some downloads can sound good too, depending on the format and bit rate. As for paying $15 happily for an uncompressed download? No thanks! I generally feel that the pricing of downloads is HUGELY inflated. Look at the production and distribution costs for the different media and weigh it up - pressing, quality control, manufacturing, distribution, art work printing and manufacture, warehousing etc etc.... with electronic formats you create the file once and pay for bandwidth. Who is making the extra profit here? Not the artist that is for sure.




If the majority of the money was going to the artist would you still feel that way?

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#66
musicade
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 14:13:51 (permalink)
If the majority of the money was going to the artist would you still feel that way?


Yes!

I think its unethical business, I could be here all night if I start to rant about digital distribution.... so I won't, I've got my album to promote and some new tracks to record...... thats more fun

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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 14:53:20 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: ohhey


ORIGINAL: Blackwaters End

There should be a law that those waveform snapshots (like on the Death of Dynamic Range site) should be included on every CD sold in the U.S. People would start asking questions. It would be like the nutritional info required on foods...




That is a fantastic idea ! Also, there should be a law that no waveforms can clip. All CDs should include 100% of the music, not just the lower 99% of it.



Well, maybe it would still be legal to sell such music, but only if earplugs were included!

It would be interesting to see what the effect would be if consumers suddenly became aware that not only is part of the product missing, but that the missing parts were replaced with an unpleasant distortion?

It would also be interesting to see what are the physiological effects of exposure to digital clipping for long periods of time.

Maybe it is like those high frequency things that keep birds/pests away...people actually avoid music stores as a result...
#68
PacRec
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 15:26:34 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry

After further listening of Snakes and Arrows:

The kick drum has WAY too much "BOOM"... and totally masks the electric bass.
Geddy Lee is a monster bass player... and you should be able to hear the details of his playing.


I'm glad I am not the only one , It was one of the first things I noticed, Where's the bass guitar? It's like the whole bottom is smeard. I heard somewhere that they were tracking this one to tape on a Studer A827, I had my hopes up that there was possibly going to be a sonic improvment over the last few releases. Oh well so much for high hopes!

The ME on this release was "Big Bass Brian" (more like where's the bass Brian) He's a heavy hitter, does tons of big time stuff but I am no fan of his. I am dissapointed at what he did with Snakes and Arrows and prior to this, the last CD I bought mastered by him still holds the the record as being the most horribly mastered CD I have ever heard in my life! That CD is Jupiter's Darling by Heart. I is a shame there is so much good material on that CD and only to have it completly destroyed in mastering, unbelievably over compressed and distorted, unlistenable on an Ipod. I for the life of me have no idea how it was released like this!

Big Bass Brian
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Hansenhaus
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 16:04:26 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: musicade

If the majority of the money was going to the artist would you still feel that way?


Yes!

I think its unethical business, I could be here all night if I start to rant about digital distribution.... so I won't, I've got my album to promote and some new tracks to record...... thats more fun




It would be nice if you would explain your point of view a little more because right now I think you are just cheap. Would you would rather pay $15-18 bucks for a CD that cost about $1.25 to make. Dosen't that seem just as absurd? Most of the profit goes to the retailer, distributer and the label. Who gets the last little fraction? The artist. Talk about being unethical! Aside from that, paying 15 bucks for something you will get hours of enjoyment out of is quite a bargain. Whether its a download or a hard copy. Most DVDs you watch once or twice and then they start collecting dust and on the average they cost more. At least with music we can enjoy it just about everwhere and over and over. With the way you think it's ironic you are even trying to create a album. Are you just going to give it away for practically nothing? How do you cover the expense of making the CD? If I had a way to sell my music from my own site electronically I would not think twice about collecting 15 bucks for an album or 1 dollar per track. It cost momey to make these damn things and I think we deserve as much money as we can collect on our efforts.

post edited by Hansenhaus - 2007/05/08 16:36:52

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#70
Ognis
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 16:08:03 (permalink)
Guess noone has heard The Raconteurs
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ohhey
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 16:12:31 (permalink)
If you google "loudness wars" you will find all kinds of good information. There is even a wikipedia entry for it and gives Rush - Vapor Trails as an example.

I think Rush became the poster child for this because before Vapor Trails the bad CDs on the market were by bands that produced bad music to start with so nobody cared if their CD was messed up. Rush Vapor Trails was the first from a band known for "art rock" and then it was noticed.
post edited by ohhey - 2007/05/08 16:18:41
#72
Dr. Mac
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 18:47:43 (permalink)
As for the new RUSH CD...

Awesome music/excellent song-writing, BUT.... the DRUMS are DEAD in the mix! They do not have the same bite that they did in Moving Pictures, for example. Undoubtedly one of the best drummers alive today, but with all of the dynamics taken out of his playing. Peart's dynamics are what make him such an amazing drummer to listen to. Who produced this thing by the way? Because he actually buried Peart's talent in the mix. Wow!

Vocals... well.... Getty Lee is an amazing musician, but there's little excitement for me here.

Guitars... OK, but squashed to hell.

Worth picking up the CD and listening to a few times, but I'll wait to see them on tour.

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Hansenhaus
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 20:35:26 (permalink)
It was produced by Nick Raskulinecz. I don't much at all about him but he has worked with the Foo Fighters. I'm not pleased with the results of the collaboration and I feel he is a bit young to be working with such a powerhouse like Rush. Maybe that is why Rush liked him so much. I feel Rush lost a lot of the sound that makes them unique with this release. It's most likely due to the lousy engineering. The compositions still have the Rush feel. Is the crappy sound a result of the producer's influence or did the band want to sound like this? I agree with Ian about the drums. When you are working with a legend like Neil Peart you take great care in maximizing what he brings to the table. You don't bury his drums all squashed up in the middle.

I'm hoping the 5.1 version will sound much cleaner and more dynamic. I will probably take a chance on it because there will be some behind the scenes video on it but my expectations will be low. It's annoying how they are releasing the DVD audio one month later. They just want to get the CD sales out first and then suck in the same people to purchase the DVD. I would have just purchased the DVD from the start.



post edited by Hansenhaus - 2007/05/08 20:38:42

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#74
keith
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:00:02 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Hansenhaus
It was produced by Nick Raskulinecz. I don't much at all about him but he has worked with the Foo Fighters. I'm not pleased with the results of the collaboration and I feel he is a bit young to be working with such a powerhouse like Rush.


Oh really? Well, I'm no authority on the Foo Fighters, but the the Foo Fighters that I am familiar with can be generally categorized as a "ballz to the wall contemporary rock band". So, basically the visual depiction of your average Foo Fighters song is going to look like those over-compressed, over-limited waveforms. Anybody surprised?

I actually like alot of Foo Fighters stuff (e.g., "Best of You" is a good solid rock tune)... but can the same teeny-bopper rock-n-roller pop-rock producer do Rush justice? That would be a stretch in my book... Admittedly, I don't know uch abou this guy, so I'll google him...





#75
Ognis
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:04:12 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: keith


ORIGINAL: Hansenhaus
It was produced by Nick Raskulinecz. I don't much at all about him but he has worked with the Foo Fighters. I'm not pleased with the results of the collaboration and I feel he is a bit young to be working with such a powerhouse like Rush.


Oh really? Well, I'm no authority on the Foo Fighters, but the the Foo Fighters that I am familiar with can be generally categorized as a "ballz to the wall contemporary rock band". So, basically the visual depiction of your average Foo Fighters song is going to look like those over-compressed, over-limited waveforms. Anybody surprised?

I actually like alot of Foo Fighters stuff (e.g., "Best of You" is a good solid rock tune)... but can the same teeny-bopper rock-n-roller pop-rock producer do Rush justice? That would be a stretch in my book... Admittedly, I don't know uch abou this guy, so I'll google him...











I'd rather be locked in a room and forced to listen to dogs bark... Little Paris Hilton dogs at that...
#76
Clydewinder
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:06:14 (permalink)
Buying a modern overcompressed peak-limited CD is no different than buying a cupcake that has been stepped on.

The Poodle Chews It.


#77
Ognis
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:08:42 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Ognis

Guess noone has heard The Raconteurs



#78
keith
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:17:29 (permalink)
Nick Raskulinecz


Ok, here's what I've gotten so far (production and engineering):

Foo Fighters
Velvet Underground
Stone Temple Pilots
Queens of the Stone Age
System of a Down
Fireball Ministry
Duff McKagan (solo thingy)
Some project with Fred Durst (he of Limp Bizkit fame, not to be confused with the East Hampton Dursts)
etc.

... and... producer of the latest Rush album?

Hey, all good stuff. I like STP, Velvet Underground, etc... that being said, he seems to have good engineering/production talent under the hood... but do you feel a little Sesame Street about this? You know, like "one of these things is not like the others"...

Maybe Neil, Geddy, and Alex are at the beginning of a crossover phase... like they're morphing into a modern day Primus or something...

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Hansenhaus
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:35:40 (permalink)
Here is a screen shot of Far Cry in Sound Forge.



There is no clipping on the Sound Forge meter but it pretty much stay about -.1dB. The VU/PPM meter (extended VU range) is nearly pegged at the end of the tune at +10.

Need I say more.

Eric
post edited by Hansenhaus - 2007/05/08 21:38:39

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#80
keith
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:40:25 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Ognis
Guess noone has heard The Raconteurs


Cute website, pretty creative... http://www.theraconteurs.com/

Not a big Jack White fan, though.
#81
keith
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:44:01 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Hansenhaus
There is no clipping on the Sound Forge meter but it pretty much stay about -.1dB.


Right, so like the author of the previously linked article points out... if you zoom in you'll see a bunch of square wave segments... It's easy to create a square wave that doesn't clip. Just turn it down a couple of notches.

BTW, I wonder what happened in the middle there where it just dropped out... must have been a "quite interlude". A xylophone solo, perhaps?
post edited by keith - 2007/05/08 21:48:25
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Hansenhaus
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:46:03 (permalink)
Ok now here is a screen shot from Tom Sawyer in Sound Forge. This is from the remastered version.



It's plenty loud while still retaining lots of dynamic range, does not induce ear fatigue and sounds wonderful. What is so hard about that? Notice the HUGE difference in the VU/PPM meter from Far Cry...
post edited by Hansenhaus - 2007/05/08 21:52:58

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#83
Hansenhaus
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:53:35 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: keith


ORIGINAL: Ognis
Guess noone has heard The Raconteurs


Cute website, pretty creative... http://www.theraconteurs.com/

Not a big Jack White fan, though.


That website is definetly cool. I really liked it. I listen to one track but it did not excite me that much. However, the mix is not hyper compressed and sounded good.

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#84
keith
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:56:58 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Hansenhaus
It's plenty loud while still retaining lots of dynamic range, does not induce ear fatigue and sounds wonderful. What is so hard about that? Notice the HUGE difference in the VU/PPM meter...


I mentioned it a while ago in another thread... if somebody wanted to (and had the resources to), they could have a medical study conducted that would scientifically prove that listening to blocks of loud white noise is X orders of magnitude more harmful to eardrums than just regular old loud music. There's a reason our ears get "tired" -- our brains are telling us to shut it off before we damage some circuitry! Now if your brain is telling you that after just 2 or 3 songs, and you and many like you have probably listened to your fair share of loud rock and roll -- then there must be a reasonably provable scientific explanation. I'm no doctor, but that's my intuition anyway...



#85
Ognis
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 21:59:17 (permalink)
Not a big Jack White fan, though.


Me neither. I never liked the White Stripes at all. The Raconteurs are great though. Jack White doesnt sing much. Check this out,

http://www.myspace.com/theraconteurs

They are from Nashville, which kinda makes ya wonder why they'd come to Memphis to do their album..

The first track on the Myspace sounds the worst, skip to Broken Boy Soldier, or Level, or Together.
post edited by Ognis - 2007/05/08 22:04:55
#86
mwd
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 22:43:18 (permalink)
Here is a screen shot of Far Cry in Sound Forge


That is intensely scary. Hope you don't mind me saving those images as what not to do.

You do have 45 more seconds of timeline squeezed into the same size window on Far Cry.

But I don't think stretching it out timeline for timeline is gonna' help it much.

Good visual.




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Hansenhaus
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/08 23:03:29 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: mwd

Here is a screen shot of Far Cry in Sound Forge


That is intensely scary. Hope you don't mind me saving those images as what not to do.

You do have 45 more seconds of timeline squeezed into the same size window on Far Cry.

But I don't think stretching it out timeline for timeline is gonna' help it much.

Good visual.



I didn't even think to try and match up the timelines of the waveform displays, sorry about that. But you are right there wouldn't be much difference. You got the point though and that is what I hoping to get across.

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#88
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/09 21:51:19 (permalink)
maybe it was mixed for ear pods :-)

OUCH
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: OT: New Rush CD and others 2007/05/09 22:30:49 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Hansenhaus
I'm 37 years old and it's hard to accept we are just getting too old to appreciate today's music.


i hate today's music and i'm only 26, if that makes you feel better.

Anyone else have a great sounding album to recommend?


anything by dave matthews band besides "everyday", "some devil" and "stand up". i like those cds but they are missing the dynamics of the older albums. actually "busted stuff" came after "everyday" and is either less squashed or done better. "stand up" is pretty dynamic but the peaks are chopped too hard.

- jack the ex-cynic
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