OT: New breaker panel.

Thought I'd ask here (cause this is where the smartest people on the internet live)  
if anyone is knowledgable about replacing a main electrical panel and likes to type:). I have a main 150 amp breaker outside that feeds the panel (inside).

I started a thread with pics here:
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-c-d-c/492064-replace-old-fpe-load-center.html

If you have any thoughts on it, that would be great. If not, well, carry on in Am...
Thanks

Yeh Looking at your pics Id imagine you have a 200 amp meter base and the wire sized to it from the base to the breaker and to the panel, they have just chosen to put a 150 breaker in-between for some reason.  That might come down to some rating on the Panel, if Im looking at the pics correctly their is one with the Panels info showing it at 200?

If that's the case you have a 200 amp service all the way to the panel with just the 150 breaker in the middle which wouldn't be a bad thing, just limits the circuit to 150 instead of 200.

But with that breaker in place, you should be able to easily replace the panel then have someone local check your work if needed.  There are MANY sizes (Dimension wise) of panels out there, you should be able to find one close to keep from running into wire length troubles.

Hey Mike. Thanks man.

The electric is 40 years old. I don't think anything has been changed by the PoCo. Except they did put in a new meter a couple years ago. So, they were there and saw what was what.
Actually, the lines at the stack from the pole look a little smaller than what feeds the main breaker and the panel. Not sure though.

Yea, I guess FPE is pretty bad news. I've lived in this neighborhood for 25 years and have never heard of anyone having a fire or major problem though. 
Pretty sure that most of the houses have the same panels. Still, It's probably a good idea to swap it out as insurance companies and inspectors can cause a lot of grief.
Plus, I don't want my house to burn down:)

That said, Yea, I just want to do the panel so as not to get the PoCo involved.
I look at the stuff at Lowes and HD and most of them are main breaker hubs.
Or, not enough circuits. I was looking at the 150 amp boxes, but now I'm assuming I can get get a 200 amp box and just not max it out. (I only need like 30-32 circuits).

It's hard to figure out as there is not a lot of pics or dimension layouts (that I can find) as I don't want to be wire nutting in the box.

Mike, I'm assuming that I can just take pics,  label everything, cut the main breaker power, unhook all the wires, pull the old box out, work the new box in, and hook up everything exactly the way it was and I'm good to go. Is that reasonable?

Those 2 white wires are from the AC and the hot water heater. Both use 2 breakers. I have no idea why they are like that. 

Are you an electrician?

Thanks Mike.

The service feeders from the power co are 200a rated as is the can.  The 150 CB limits the current going to the FP panel. This would allow the use of smaller wire to feed the bus bars. It does appear to be 200a rated so that is not necessary. The panels look to be in good shape. Nothing looks overloaded. So replacing it would be for a reason other than it's overloaded or in bad condition. Maybe you need more power due to a new AC unit or a house addition. Since I don't like FPE panels, that's all the reason I would want. 

I would pull it all out. Go back with a 200a rated "Power Panel" which incorporates a meter base, a 200a main CB and bus bar space to handle up to 6 double pole breakers for "other stuff". It's all built into one nice neat can that mounts on the side of the house, run a stick of 2" rigid up through the roof with a boot, and slap the weather head (wasp house) on top and you're good to go. 

This is what I have on my house. I reworked this a few years back when I built on a new addition.

You can feed the existing lighting panel from the power panel (PP) using a 4 wire cable. You can also pick up the HVAC loads as well as range and dryer from this PP. All would have to be 4 wire. I pulled the 3 I just spoke of out of my lighting panel and dropped them into the PP outside, as well as a totally new sub panel for the addition. 

To answer the question about white wires on a breaker...... that would be old 240v circuits like water heaters and dryers and such. In the old days you could put the white of the multiwire on the breaker. Now days, it needs to be color coded other than white or grey to be on a breaker and not at ground/neutral potential... on both ends. 

I don't work in electrical these days (I'm in low voltage security now) but I used to do a lot of electrical work and ran across the old Federal panels quite often. I don't like them.  The breakers don't make very good connection to the bus bars. Parts are hard to get so I generally would replace them, and I think the other one I really hated was the Sylvania panels. The price I was quoted one time for 3 sylvania breakers was more than the cost of a new weatherproof Bryant panel with all the breakers to totally replace a panel...... so I replaced the panel. 

As far as mixing Al & Cu wiring..... the bus bars and breakers are usually rated for either. It will state that on them somewhere or in the panel label. If using Al, which most people will do because of costs, using a rated "de-oxidation" compound is a requirement.  Al also needs to be tightened properly. Loose AL connections will heat up and burn out.  You do not want to splice Al wire to Cu wires. If you do, it's not advisable BUT, you can do it with a properly rated splitbolt..... best not to attempt this.  Spring for wire that's long enough to reach without splicing. 

If you are not familiar with electrical work, and or are not conversant on the current and existing codes and practices in your area, it would be best to have an electrician do the work or at least look at it before you call the inspector. Electrical work on the service entrance equipment needs to be done right and inspected. 

A service change out can easily be accomplished in one day... 6 to 8 hrs or so.... including interior panel upgrade and new 4 wire feeder, but you have to have everything lined up, permits pulled, equipment on site, and all the tools needed to do the job, and a source of electricity other than your own house.  I did that many a time by myself and always got the power back on before 5pm.

Check the amp rating on each breaker as well and mark the wires if they a different and your not sure by looking at the wires once removed.

Some might require 15 amp
Some might be 20 amp

A lot of older homes ran #14 requiring the 15 amp breaker for light circuits

then #12 on the outlets/duplex plugs requiring 20 amp breakers

Don't mix them up!!! a 20 amp breaker on #15 wire is asking fire a fire.

A lot of older homes ran #14 requiring the 15 amp breaker for light circuits then #12 on the outlets/duplex plugs requiring 20 amp breakers Don't mix them up!!! a 20 amp breaker on #15 wire is asking fire a fire.

Yea, I got that Mike. Thanks, 

A "lighting panel" is simply a panel in a house.... or in some cases a business which handles among other things, the lighting loads. 

In a house the lights and the general purpose outlets are considered to be part of the lighting load as calculated in the square foot method. We often use the wall outlets to plug light fixtures and lamps in. In most houses, this also includes the heavy loads like range, dryer, and HVAC.


However, by using the power panel as I described, you are able to unload all of the heavy loads to the service equipment. This clears up spaces in the "lighting panel" and lowers the load on it. Good all the way around. 


http://www.bing.com/image...&selectedIndex=169

I tried to find a picture of a power panel. ^^^^ this is as close as I could find with a quick search.

The power panel I talk about is simply a single can/box with a built in meter base, and a main 200a built in CB with room for 6 double pole breakers. Even though it may look like there is room for more than 6 DPCB in the right side, the buss bar configuration of a panel like this only allows room for 6DPCB to be installed. (code requirement) 

A bit more on that white wire hot issue..... back a number of years, it was legal to use a romex cable with 2 wires and a bare ground to feed a 240v load. The ground would serve as ground and neutral in many cases. As accidents happened as a result, the codes were re-written to improve safety and now a 4 wire circuit is required with red & black as hot, white is neutral and bare equipment ground. Old circuits, as long as they are properly fused for wire size are grandfathered and need not be removed BUT, the white does need to have "permanent" color coding to eliminate the danger associated with people thinking white wires are "safe".  Color coding is to be on both ends and in ALL junctions on that circuit. 

This is the reason they still sell 3 wire dryer & range pigtails and outlets. All new installs require 4 wire circuits on dryers and ranges.  

Doing your own work:  If you own the house AND live in it as your primary residence full time...... in NC you are allowed to perform your own repairs. You are still required to obtain the proper permits and the job will be inspected by an inspector. All applicable codes must be followed to the letter and failure to do so will be cause for a failed inspection. They probably look closer at a homeowner's repairs than they would at a licensed electrician's work whom they know to do excellent and conscientious  work. 


If there is something you do not understand, let me know and I'll try to splain it better. 

So, the electrician comes over. Real nice guy. After all the normal talk about this and that I said, 'If this was your house what would you do'. He said he has an FPE panel in his house. nuff said.......


Mike. FPE is 'Federal Pacific Electric' who made these panels many of which were defective causing fires.