OT: Sensitivity vs gain, trim, pre-amp etc

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jcatena
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RE: OT: Sensitivity vs gain, trim, pre-amp etc 2009/07/08 17:51:31 (permalink)
> I would think that the "Control Room" stereo outs are balanced right? If that's the case I should just come out there with 1/4" balanced TRS to XLR all the way to the board no?

Yes, that's right.
If they were unbalanced, in the TRS the - cable should be connecte to ground.

Jose Catena
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#31
g_randybrown
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RE: OT: Sensitivity vs gain, trim, pre-amp etc 2009/07/08 17:53:58 (permalink)
I hate to keep bugging you Jose but please answer this:
If that's the case I should just come out there with 1/4" balanced TRS to XLR all the way to the board no?
Thanks again,
Randy

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#32
jcatena
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RE: OT: Sensitivity vs gain, trim, pre-amp etc 2009/07/08 17:56:53 (permalink)
> If that's the case I should just come out there with 1/4" balanced TRS to XLR all the way to the board no?

YES!

Jose Catena
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#33
g_randybrown
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RE: OT: Sensitivity vs gain, trim, pre-amp etc 2009/07/08 18:03:59 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: jcatena

> If that's the case I should just come out there with 1/4" balanced TRS to XLR all the way to the board no?

YES!


Thank you so much Jose, you have saved me a lot of trouble sir!
Randy

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#34
jcatena
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RE: OT: Sensitivity vs gain, trim, pre-amp etc 2009/07/08 18:07:48 (permalink)
You're welcome, Randy.

Edit typo
post edited by jcatena - 2009/07/08 22:00:12

Jose Catena
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#35
The Maillard Reaction
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RE: OT: Sensitivity vs gain, trim, pre-amp etc 2009/07/08 21:06:19 (permalink)
FWIW The control room outputs are unbalanced as evidenced by the flow chart in the manual Randy linked too.


#36
Bristol_Jonesey
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RE: OT: Sensitivity vs gain, trim, pre-amp etc 2009/07/09 05:57:22 (permalink)
But no harm wil be done by running a balanced TSR > XLR straight into the mixer - defnitely get rid of the D.I. box.



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#37
g_randybrown
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RE: OT: Sensitivity vs gain, trim, pre-amp etc 2009/07/09 10:09:17 (permalink)
Okay so this is an unbalanced signal that will travel maybe 100 feet and it doesn't need a DI box?
I'm so confused, when is a DI box needed then?
Thanks very much guys,
Randy

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#38
jcatena
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RE: OT: Sensitivity vs gain, trim, pre-amp etc 2009/07/09 11:02:38 (permalink)
The input to the mixer is balanced. It substracts the two signals. Even if one of the signals is actually grounded at source, the noise picked by both cables is cancelled. Actually, even if the source is unbalanced, the transmission line is balanced, it is the input and not the output what makes a transmission line balanced.
When a symmetrical output is used (both signals are used, one with reversed polarity), we gain 6 dB of SNR because the summing of the two signals, but the noise cancelation remains the same as in a non symmetrical balanced line.
To be completely accurate, we have also to take into account line impedance. If both + and - lines don't have the same impedance, they will pick different levels of noise, reducing the noise cancellation effect at the substraction in the input. So we can speak of matched impedance balanced and unmatched impedance balanced lines. To make a matched impedance line, instead of connecting the - to ground at the source connector, it is connected to ground through a resistor matching the output impedance of the + signal.
The reduction of noise cancellation depends on the relationship of impedances. The most important is destination or input impedance, and it's given by the input device, it's matched. The mistmatch in source impedance has much less impact, and becomes of very little importance when the impedance is low compared with the input impedance. For this reason, a low impedance output, such in the case we are discussing, for example 100 ohms for + out, 0 ohms for the - line, and a few kohms in the input (600 min), makes a negligible difference in the result.
There exists gear with truly symmetrical output, and gear with balanced output where the - pin is simply connected to ground through a resistor matching the + output impedance. As explained before, the only difference in performance is 6 dB of SNR, and the noise cancellation works exactly the same in both cases. To make a balanced signal from an unbalanced output, all we need to do is connect the - cable to ground through a resistor matching the + output impedance at the source connector. Instead of that, we may simplify connecting the - cable to ground directly at the source connector, and although it is not the "perfect" way, the result is almost the same when applied to low impedance outputs. If you still want a matched impedance balanced output, you can either make an adapter with the resistor in it, or modify your device placing the resistor between ground and the -pin. I did the latest with some gear that inexplicably uses balanced connectors with the - pin unconnected, for example the Roland TD-20 v-drums module, I can not really understand how an engineer would be as stupid as not doing so in a professional device, but this is life.
I know I didn't use good language to explain it, but I hope I made it clear enough.

Jose Catena
DIGIWAVES, S.L.
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