fresh101
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OT Waves cracks down on cracks
Just read this article at Sonicstate news Crackdown On The Cracks
Waves get heavy with unauthorised users of their plug-ins 09-Aug-07
If you have already listened to this week’s Sonic Talk podcast you’ll know about this one – Waves has instigated a series of investigations aimed at discovering unauthorised users of its software and collecting payment from them.
Our friends at Pro Sound News Europe have an exclusive story on this one. They tell us that Waves has employed undercover agents posing as musicians trying to book time at various UK and US studios and, in the process, gathering evidence of the use of unlicenced or ‘cracked’ copies of Waves software. Secret video footage has been gathered and several users of the software have received an official letter from Waves’s collection agents offering them the chance to pay Waves the cost of the original plug-ins, plus a substantial extra sum on top, or face legal action.
At least six well known London studios and an educational establishment are known to be involved with visits from the Waves’ agents taking place earlier this year followed up by solicitor’s letters. Waves have confirmed that the investigations have taken place as part of BanPiracy, a continuing global campaign.
This is story that is going to run on over the next few weeks. We will be keeping abreast of developments but you can check out the Pro Sound News Europe website for the full story and hear their Editor, Dave Robinson, discussing the matter in today’s Sonic Talk 055 podcast.
More information:
www.prosoundnewseurope.com This really doesn't affect most of use here (hopefully) but if some strange guy is looking over your shoulder at your next session you'll know why. 
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cryophonik
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 17:10:58
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Hmmm - that doesn't seem like a very cost-effective way of recouping lost sales when one considers the cost of hiring undercover clients, purchasing spycams, paying the studio for their time to be there spying on them, pursuing legal actions, etc., but I assume that Waves did a thorough cost-benefit anaylsis before proceeding with this scheme...  One can only assume that any losses accrued from this crackdown will be passed on to its legitimate customer base. 
post edited by cryophonik - 2007/08/12 17:19:52
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j boy
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 17:42:09
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And you guys were worried about George Bush and the Partiot Act?
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mumpcake
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 17:42:11
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I'm sure the "substantial extra sum" will more than cover it.
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droddey
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 18:05:26
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Hmmm - that doesn't seem like a very cost-effective way of recouping lost sales when one considers the cost of hiring undercover clients, purchasing spycams, paying the studio for their time to be there spying on them, pursuing legal actions, etc., But it's probably nothing to do with recouping lost sales, it's to do with avoiding many more future lost sales, since it will make professional outfits a lot less likely to use a ripped off copy in the future. The whole reason that IP theft is so wide spread is that there are no consequences and almost chance of getting caught. A fairly light chance of getting caught keeps theft in other industries down to a few percent of revenues.
post edited by droddey - 2007/08/12 18:14:10
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Rev. Jem
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 21:19:33
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I suspect that the news itself will have an effect without Waves paying a cent. I confess to being somewhat amazed that a pro studio would even consider using unlicensed software. The expense is used to reduce the business' taxable income so where's the long-term advantage ?
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danp2000
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 21:23:47
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There's an easy way to avoid these problems.
Purchase the software you use.
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Ognis
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 21:32:50
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Weird studio's are using cracked software. Cracked software is of course wrong, but to use it to make money is even worse.
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tls11823
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 21:58:26
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ORIGINAL: cryophonik
Hmmm - that doesn't seem like a very cost-effective way of recouping lost sales ...
The cops set out a cruiser by the highway to monitor for speeders. They'll only catch a few, but then everybody else slows down - at least for a while. There's no way a company's going to stop all theft of their intellectual property, but I think these guys are smart to do what they're doing. If there's a chance you'll get caught and ruin your professional reputation and your opportunity for future income, you'll think twice before using a burned copy. I've made my living off of software for the last three decades, so I take a pretty dim view of piracy. When I think of all the person-hours that go into creating this stuff, a few hundred bucks per copy isn't much to ask.
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droddey
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 22:05:58
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I've made my living off of software for the last three decades, so I take a pretty dim view of piracy. When I think of all the person-hours that go into creating this stuff, a few hundred bucks per copy isn't much to ask. Me also. But you know that there's this whole mythology out there of the evil corporation and lots of attitudes that verge on the communist really. You see it in any threads where a software manufacturer tries to do something about the widespread theft of their product.
And you guys were worried about George Bush and the Partiot Act?
Is an example. Their protecting themselves against theft of their product is the equiv of the Patriot Act. And that's a relatively mild attitude relative to a lot that I've seen. Combine that with a completely casual attitudes towards theft of IP, and the situation is not good, and that's why we have dongles and various aother annoyances. People who wouldn't even dream of walking into a store and stealing something will spend hours in an online forum trying to rationalize why they steal music and software and how it's really good for those industries that this is happening.
post edited by droddey - 2007/08/12 22:13:32
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Rev. Jem
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 22:35:07
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ORIGINAL: droddey
... there's this whole mythology out there of the evil corporation and lots of attitudes that verge on the communist really So communist = bad ?  Their protecting themselves against theft of their product is the equiv of the Patriot Act. Hmmm...and I thought the Patriot Act involved the total suspension of all citizens' rights in the name of fighting terrorism - rather similar to Winston Churchill's "man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."
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droddey
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 22:43:02
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So communist = bad ? That's a matter of personal opinion of course, but if you want to be one, then you shouldn't get to be one by living off of the sweat of other people's brow who are working for it. Hmmm...and I thought the Patriot Act involved the total suspension of all citizens' rights in the name of fighting terrorism - rather similar to Winston Churchill's "man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the
handle." I'm not sure what your point is on that one. Are you arguing for me or against me? I was just pointing out someone else's quote, I wasn't making that assertion myself.
post edited by droddey - 2007/08/12 22:51:32
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studio24
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/12 23:37:10
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Waves doesn't seem to get it, I'm afraid. Just coming off their WUP disaster (driving customers
away in-droves), having to woo them back with re-bundling, WUP caps and 50% NARAS discounts,
they do this?
It's a public-relations nightmare and perpetuates the stereotype of them being
ham-handed greedy bastards. You gotta wonder who in the company comes up with these
half-assed ideas?
I'm a full-tilt paying Waves customer. But now they have me wondering if they'll be
coming to spy on me? Maybe we should institute a "no unauthorized video" policy
to thwart this kind of crap.
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droddey
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 00:07:39
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I'm no fan of Waves, as anyone would know who has read my whining about them. But they are completely within their rights here. These are professional studios, not individual citizens. And the places filmed are specifically not off limits to third parties. Anything done there should be considered pretty much public activity since anyone can pay to come in there. If you are ignorant enough to use stolen property in such a place, for profit, you deserve what you get. It's like stealing your next door neighbor's stuff and having a yard sale.
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mixmkr
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 00:32:29
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so..."hey... that mix sounds good....are you using cracked software??" [engineer] " no way, man... that's just not right...we're a professional outfit" "oh.... I was just wondering...didn't mean to insult you" [engineer] "that's quite alright....you look like a narc anyway... kinda wondered why you can't play your instrument" ..........oh... Milli Vanilla.... posers.... lol!
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studio24
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 00:45:21
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ORIGINAL: droddey
I'm no fan of Waves, as anyone would know who has read my whining about them. But they are completely within their rights here. These are professional studios, not individual citizens. And the places filmed are specifically not off limits to third parties. Anything done there should be considered pretty much public activity since anyone can pay to come in there. If you are ignorant enough to use stolen property in such a place, for profit, you deserve what you get. It's like stealing your next door neighbor's stuff and having a yard sale.
No, they're not. If they suspect that their products have been mis-appropriated, then they should contact Interpol and have the violators prosecuted. This is different. The mere fact that it was leaked to ProSoundNews and confirmed by the corporation says that this is a publicity stunt not unlike an IRS celebrity lynching The point is "we're looking for you." But, in a vigilante and potentially illegal manner. All they have to do is bark up the wrong tree and they're looking at a lawsuit. If they reported this to law enforcement, it would be an entirely different situation to me. Do I want my vendors spying and taking piracy matters into their own hands? Hell no.
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droddey
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 01:03:26
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No, they're not. If they suspect that their products have been mis-appropriated, then they should contact Interpol and have the violators prosecuted. This is different. And Interpol would have gotten right onto that by what year? You really think that anything would have been done? And how would they have known who to point Interpol at? Should they just call up Interpol and say we think people are using our stuff without paying, go find them and make them pay us? How far do you think that would have gotten them? That's the problem with IP theft, the vendors are pretty much left to their own devices unless it's professional pirates.
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jungfriend
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 01:27:35
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Yeah, that's how I feel too. I mean Law Enforcement just doesn't work, They never protect the interests of the companies, let alone private citizens. We all need to arm ourselves and take the law into our own hands. Or at least spy on our neighbors, catch them doing something illegal, and then take action against them. I wholly favor this kind of activity, and will probably give up music just so I can catch these wrongdoers who are stealing the intellectual property of big companies who are always looking out for their customers and client's best interests. Really, isn't it is to everyone's advantage to have companies suspecting their clients, trying to trap people in their industry, and disparaging others without due process? That is the best way to run a business in these days when nearly everyone is stealing something or other.
Paul
Sonar X2 PE, ADK Core i7 920 3.6ghz 12gb, UAD-2 Quad, 2x20"+2x19" LCDs, Focal CMS 50, POD HD500, Layla 3G, PoCo mkII PCI-e, Tranzport, Edirol M-16DX, Remote SL61, Mackie MCU, NI Kore 2, NI Komplete, NI Maschine, etc.
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studio24
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 01:31:47
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ORIGINAL: droddey
No, they're not. If they suspect that their products have been mis-appropriated, then they should contact Interpol and have the violators prosecuted. This is different.
And Interpol would have gotten right onto that by what year? You really think that anything would have been done? And how would they have known who to point Interpol at? Should they just call up Interpol and say we think people are using our stuff without paying, go find them and make them pay us? How far do you think that would have gotten them? That's the problem with IP theft, the vendors are pretty much left to their own devices unless it's professional pirates.
I don't understand why you're condoning this practice by a private company. Imagine if this became the norm in the industry. The Waves Spies, The SteinbergSpies ... the you name it. I know a few bad apples spoil a whole barrel .... but I'd rather not the barrel spoil the apples from the outside in. I know it's slower, but a private company should be dealing with theft just as a private citizen should .. one should report it to a law enforcement agency and let the wheels of justice turn. I don't believe Waves piracy has placed the company into such a dire situation that they need to result to vigilantism in order to survive. They do plenty well.
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droddey
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 01:50:38
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I don't understand why you're condoning this practice by a private company. Imagine if this became the norm in the industry. So what if it did? What would be the outcome? People who were stealing the product would get caught, and the efforts would be going against those who were really doing the crime. I mean if you had a studio, and I paid to come in and do my album there, and I wanted to film it, would you stop me from doing that? I would imagine that most studios wouldn't care if you filmed your own sessions, right? So what possible difference would it make? The only difference would be if that studio is using stolen software. The thing I don't get about you guys is that the entire reason that we suffer all these technical protection mechanisms is because nothing ever gets done to the people who steal IP content. They get away with it all the time, therefore the vendors have no choice but to implement mechanisms that are non-discriminating and therefore affect us all. But, when the vendors do actually finally take steps against people who really are stealing the stuff, they are condemned for it. So we damn them if they do and damn them if they don't. I know it's slower, but a private company should be dealing with theft just as a private citizen should .. one should report it to a law enforcement agency and let the wheels of justice turn. I don't believe Waves piracy has placed the company into such a dire situation that they need to result to vigilantism in order to survive. They do plenty well. Again, I ask. If you have no idea who is stealing it, what do you think that the authorities are going to do? They aren't going to act on a vague feeling you have that someone is stealing your stuff. That's the problem with IP theft, it leaves no evidence most of the time. And they aren't doing anything remotely vigilante. They filmed themselves going into a place where they had the right to go, and probably where they had the right to film. They weren't spying, they didn't break into any buildings or tap any phones. They just took pictures of the place that they paid to go into. I see nothing wrong with this. It's not very much different from taking pictures in public If you believed that your neighbor was coming onto your property at night and doing something but you could never prove it, would you feel like a vigilante for setting up a camera and capturing it and then going to the police with evidence, even if that camera captured the neighbor in his own yard? If you felt that a company was poisoning the creek by your house, but no one would ever doing anything about it, but you cold prove it by taking a tour of their company and getting some pictures, would you feel like you were being a vigilante? I wouldn't, and I don't think most would.
post edited by droddey - 2007/08/13 01:59:15
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Roflcopter
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 01:59:10
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I thought Waves came dongled. So regular users are forced to use something awfully inconvenient, which adds considerably to the price of the final products [but none to its functionality really] and it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, namely protect the investment. Way to go. 
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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droddey
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 02:10:52
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I'm no fan of the dongle, but it does actually provide a very important advantage that, for instance, SONAR doesn't have. And that's that you can install your Waves plugs on multiple machines and just move the dongle around to whichever one you want to work on. That's a real world benefit that a lot of supposedly less tight fisted companies don't allow for.
It's not inconvenient at all really, so I don't have any problem with it on that front. I plugged it in and it's just plugged in and that's all there is to it. I had problems with getting some of their plugs to work, and I had suspicions that the dongle might have been at the root of the problem, but in the end it doesn't look like it was. It was just some wierdness with their installer vs. the security settings on my machine.
The only flat out down side to it is that if SONAR glitches, I can't get a stack dump in the debugger to send to the SONAR folks because the iLok driver will shut down the app if it's connected to by a debugger.
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jungfriend
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 02:31:37
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If you believed that your neighbor was coming onto your property at night and doing something but you could never prove it, would you feel like a vigilante for setting up a camera and capturing it and then going to the police with evidence, even if that camera captured the neighbor in his own yard? If you felt that a company was poisoning the creek by your house, but no one would ever doing anything about it, but you cold prove it by taking a tour of their company and getting some pictures, would you feel like you were being a vigilante? I wouldn't, and I don't think most would. So the studio where there may or may not be pirated software in use is the property in question? How is that Waves' territory? Only the software they designed and sell is their property, not the studio they contract under false pretenses. The company poisoning the nearby creek is harming public property, not private property. Your analogy doesn't hold because neither Waves' software, nor any recording studio is public property. Doubtless the concept of intellectual property is a tricky subject. The creators view it in terms of ownership, and you appear to sometimes view it as a private possession with territorial rights, and sometimes as a public stream vulnerable to poisoning through theft. If the laws are insufficient and difficult to enforce, perhaps Waves should direct their efforts towards improving legislation and enforcement rather than vigilantism. No matter if the intent is to protect private property, entrapment is entrapment, and I suspect most courts would toss out any legal action against studios caught using pirated software in this fashion. Waves probably knows this also and that is why they threaten these studios with legal action on the one hand, and with the other hand attempt to extort egregious fees. If I were one of these studios I would not hesitate to sue them and perhaps also to charge them with obstruction of justice. Even though the end user is at fault, the real criminals are the hackers that crack protected intellectual property and distritbute it in public forums. Aren't these the persons Waves should be persuing, and not their potential customers? Paul (edited for a spelling error)
post edited by jungfriend - 2007/08/13 02:41:56
Sonar X2 PE, ADK Core i7 920 3.6ghz 12gb, UAD-2 Quad, 2x20"+2x19" LCDs, Focal CMS 50, POD HD500, Layla 3G, PoCo mkII PCI-e, Tranzport, Edirol M-16DX, Remote SL61, Mackie MCU, NI Kore 2, NI Komplete, NI Maschine, etc.
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droddey
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 03:08:55
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So the studio where there may or may not be pirated software in use is the property in question? How is that Waves' territory? Only the software they designed and sell is their property, not the studio they contract under false pretenses. They paid to come into the studio. THere's no such thing as false pretenses. If they want to pay to come into the studio and stand on their head the whole time, that's their business. They paid for it. As I said above, if you went into a studio and said you wanted to film your session so that you could improve later, do you think that a legimate studio would stop you from doing so? If not, then how is it any different that Waves went in an filmed something? If the laws are insufficient and difficult to enforce, perhaps Waves should direct their efforts towards improving legislation and enforcement rather than vigilantism. Well, that's an obvious idea. The problem is that there's no answer. There are already laws on the books, people just ignore them because they can. Can you come up with law that would make the people stealing the stuff stop? There isn't one because they know they won't get caught anyway. There are only really two ways to deal with it. Technical means to try to prevent, and reactive measures like this to try to deal with it after it happens. Law enforcement is pretty much a complete waste of time with this kind of thing for the most part, if the folks involved aren't professional pirates. They aren't going to spend their time busting studios looking for software when there are many times more dangerous stuff to take care of first. No matter if the intent is to protect private property, entrapment is entrapment, and I suspect most courts would toss out any legal action against studios caught using pirated software in this fashion. How is that entrapment? Entrapment is when the accuser coerces the person into comitting the crime. The crime was already committed here, and all Waves did is document it. Personally, I think that Waves is doing them a favor by not pressing criminal charges against them. That would probably do more harm to their business and person than just making them pay up plus interest. But either way, the cost of Waves taking them to court would probably be prohibitive, which is another one of the ways that IP owners have no effective rights. When your product is stolen many times over by a small group, the going to court works. When it's stolen by many people in singls units, it's not practical. You'll go broke just trying to go after a tiny fraction of them. Even though the end user is at fault, the real criminals are the hackers that crack protected intellectual property and distritbute it in public forums. Aren't these the persons Waves should be persuing, and not their potential customers? Again, an obvious thought, but how do you do it? It's almost impossible. Many of them are overseas, probably a fair number in Russia, where they can't get gotten at. If it was that simple, this wouldn't even be a problem. So, as in the drug war, where the crackers are overseas and the only people on home territory are the buyers, you are often stuck with going after the demand, not the supply.
post edited by droddey - 2007/08/13 03:18:36
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CJaysMusic
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 03:22:10
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I dont see the big deal, if you have nothing to hide. Let them come and take a look, posing as customers, who cares. Unless your one of them who has something to hide. I could care less what they do to protect "Their" software. Its not yours, they own the software, they just lease it too you to use anyways. Its kinda like when you lease a house and the owner wants to check it out to make sure your not trashing it. They have every right to do so.
Cj
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droddey
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 04:06:32
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Well, I think we can all agree that they are lucky that CJay isn't running Waves :-)
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CJaysMusic
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 04:07:41
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You just made me laugh so hard, i farted.
Cj
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headquest
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 04:41:55
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What seems to be said here is that Waves intend to use fear and suspision as a form of copy protection. Presumably however they intend to use this (somewhat negative) form of copy protection IN ADDITION to the existing (somewhat negative) form of copy protection that they have hitherto used (namely, iLok dongle authoriastion). So they will be relying on TWO (somewhat negative) forms of copy protection. Way to go... not!
If Waves effects are as good as they claim, they should be able to hold their place in the market without the company going to such extreem lengths to try and prove how *exclusive* they are. In fact, if they are good as claimed, they could probably sell vastly more units by lowering the price to make them more accessible to the huge project studio market, and of course scrapping iLok (which is very unpopular and seems to cause a lot of problems, especially on Windows machines, while failing to prevent piracy anyway).
In the meantime I am happy to call their bluff, and stay with Sonitus, Kjaerhus, etc.
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daverich
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 04:44:39
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as a studio who proudly advertises the fact that we dont use any pirated software, I'm glad someone has finally decided to do something about this.
It REALLY annoys me when I hear of folks running studios on cracks, and you'd be amazed how many do.
Sure it means that maybe I don't have every single plugin on the planet, but at least business is being generated for the ones I do have.
I guess waves are the only company big enough to do this, aside from maybe NI.
Kind regards
Dave Rich
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headquest
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RE: OT Waves cracks down on cracks
2007/08/13 05:07:55
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Hi Dave :)
I hear what you are saying, but surely the whole point of any copy protection mechanism is to protect/increase sales, rather than to pursue self-appointed resposibility for law enforecment?
As such I do think there are more helpful/positive approaches to protecting and increasing sales. Propellerhead have been one of the most successful companies of recent years, and their Reason software avoids all of the nasty copy protection mechanisms altogether. Instead they provide additional content to registered users, the community, etc... and most importantly, they sell their product at a price point that is affordable to the widest market. I think that Cakewalk also follow a similar path, producing high quality product at a competitive price, with excellent support to registered users.
Annoying though piracy is (I completely agree with your point about that), C/R and dongles has signally failed to solve the problem. Companies getting shirty and trying to generate fear and mistrust within the professional music/studio community seems like another harsh and provocative move. I rather hope that less people will use Waves as a result, and I mean their previous paying customers, not just the pirates. As stated before, I would certainly avoid using a product produced by a company that distrusts me and send inspectors round to check up on me!!
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