OT-Are forums a “waterhole” for a soon to be extinct species?

I totally disagree.

Today's music-buying public has more exposure and ability to find new music then ever before. There are about 40 definable categories of metal, for example: how big is the audience for each? Big enough to support club tours? Not unless as a musician you want to eat pbnj the rest of your life.

Technology has allowed for a complete democratization of music. Think about it: back in the 70s your musical exploration pretty much began and ended with your local radio station. Perhaps you can add the time you spent hanging out at some "High Fidelity"-type record store, or in some goofy music nerd's basement listening to Yellow Snow Frank Zappa songs.


But that was it. Now, if I feel like hearing, I don't know, traditional Irish music, I can find it, listen to it, stream it, be suggested to it, find an internet radio station for it...the possibilities are endless. And if the muse strikes me I can even write and record it myself. But the one thing I don't have to do is go to a club to listen to it.

As for bands, the proposition for making money was always a stretch...but a certain segment of people will always want to hear it live. Maybe not as big a market as before, but it is still there. The club circuits, the local bars...they'll always be there.

I hope the posters here make music for their enjoyment and internal satisfaction...and if someone wants to compliment another on a tune, the more the better. But let's face it: if we were all pros, we wouldn't be giving our wares away free in this forum.

I agree with yoyo's statement "the proposition for making money was always a stretch ... I hope the posters here make music for their enjoyment and internal satisfaction"

We can still discuss how to become rich & famous celebrities, but we shouldn't confuse that goal with the goal of making good music. Two tooootally different things.

I don't listen to the radio at all. Everything is too processed & predictable. Instead I like listening to the raw stuff closer to the heart. That's why I come here. In that respect, I agree that forums are a last resort, but not for the musicians. It's a last resort for the listeners.

As far as the musicians are concerned, meh, I wouldn't sweat it. True musicians existed long before the Billboard Charts, long before the Grammies, long before $$$$$. And they'll exist long after.

Mike

This is a universal concern at any level of the music 'industry' but I don't find it a worry for those that just have a need to express themselves through music there will be no change as it's like a chronic condition in many respects and there have been many times that I've wanted my 'affliction' to be removed. There is a real difference now in matching the music makers with tangible markets and many more folk have access to making there own which has to be considered a good thing for those folk even if there is no market for them.

The one most important thing that is a pre-requisite to any creativity that I may have really is based on listening to the music of my peers. Without that need where would my ideas get sparked, where do I get a creative push from? So in that respect really things are looking bright and for me the emphasis has always been where is the music gonna come from, not where its gonna end up. Fortune has never been a motivation for me and like others here I have had highs and lows financially, big breaks and low bottoms, I have had a selection of 'life' partners changed, cars, businesses and houses, children have come and grown-up yet the one thing that remains constant is that desire to make some noise.

I've written some commentary recently on the demise of the British music scene where there is a prevailing sense that if one gets a media studies qualification from an art college, knows some folk from the NME and the BBC sneers enough and learns a few chords it should guarantee them 'success' (whatever that is). Yet back in the day the big British bands that became household names firstly just played out and played out and learned all their stage craft the hard way. The days of Britain producing another Who, Floyd, Stones, Beatles, Sabbath etc. etc. etc have long since gone all because everybody is looking at the prize rather than the process and the devotion to making something sound really good. The US alongside many other nations is producing much better acts (and has done for quite some time now) than the now complacent, once world leading British now for one simple reason.....HARD WORK in making the music sound right!

When I started playing back in '70's the only thing that was hard to find was vocalists, since the advent of Karaoke and backing tracks that all changed and vocalists became almost 10 a penny and I was probably more sought after 5 years ago than at any time during my career until ill health put paid to that. But at no time during the 30 years of an ever changing industry did I change what I did, sure I adopted contemporary styles and techniques but the blinkered attention to do what I intended to do has never wavered despite the ever changing 'carrots' that have been dangled in front of me as 'incentives'.

I've been extremely fortunate in that I've been able to feed and clothe myself from my ability but had that not been the case I'd probably have got a day job and still had the same relationship with my own music. Regardless of the changing scenery outside I can't see any of that changing any time soon, sure I may be a dying breed but that's evolution it don't worry me none as long as who ever comes next gets the same kick out of it as I have. Besides I've still got stuff I wanna do and there are still plenty of those afflicted like myself I can bat at... and I'm sure that will be true until the Bouyosaurus finally does become fossilized.

To sum up, I guess for me the process is more important than the outcome, so whatever....bring it on!

I really don't know how to respond to this Mike. To me music is a craft. I love my craft! Even in my playing out band days, I found most people listening back then were half-drunk and just wanted you to play something that they could dance to. That was my experience with playing out for almost 30 yrs! I started to hate playing out in these places, cause it was the same old thing every week-end. I like the fact that a lot of 'coffee-houses and small clubs have opened up where people actually go to listen to the music! You could actually perform original material! Sometimes you have to 'dig' a little, but, they're there. When you buy a decent guitar, you see a lot of cheaply made crap hanging on the walls in shops and in catologs. You know you have to sift thru that stuff in order to find your 'gem' sometimes, but it's there.

I'm pretty much old-fashioned in the way I record and lay down music. I'm not a midi or cut 'n paste kinda guy. I just do what works for me. I get immense pleasure collabing with other musicians, creating music that stirs up emotion and images and watching it all evolve. I'd be a liar if I said I didn't care if the 'public' wasn't interested in how it sounded, however, I ain't in it for that or I would have thrown out my git a long time ago.
I think as we mature as musicians, we are looking for something more meaningful with the music. So, I say, JUST DO IT, and not worry about trends, current technology, whatever. You stay true to what YOU do, that's all that matters, the rest will follow.

Please don't bury me, down in that cold cold ground.
I'd rather have um cut me up, and pass me all around.
Put my brain in a hurricane and the blind can have my eyes.
And the deaf can have both my ears, if they don't mind the size...

Hi Michael,

I think perhaps it's all too easy to slip into a 'good old days' mentality when you reach a certain age. I would say that judging by the televised footage of the various festivals in the UK (Glastonbury, T in The Park, Monsters Of Rock etc..), the appetite for live music is as strong as it ever was, and there are certainly many young bands plying their trade in this area (my 18 year old nephew plays bass in a band and keeps me informed)

The rather depressing view that musicians aren't needed any more has been knocking around since the synthesizer was invented 40 years ago. If anything I would say that there's been a renaissance of the 'guitar band' since the early '90's, when a lot of people had had their fill of synthetic pop and dance music.

In my life I’ve seen the goal of being in a band replaced by home recording for most musicians.

I think that might translate as 'most musicians who have had enough of being in bands' - count me in to that!

Where did the audience of non-musicians go?

They're still there, they just use YouTube, MySpace, Facebook, Bebo etc to search out the music they like.

Don't let it all get you down Michael, I reckon musicians who play music will be around for a loooong time yet.

I just left a conversation with a fellow worker. Knowing I’m a musician he was telling me about an annual gospel quartet function he attended last eve. He stated there were seven excellent performances and one of them was a complete band. Before I could ask he said the others were great vocalists singing to backing tracks. He wasn’t sure what was up but said they had computers and such..YIKES!!

So I came back to read Jon’s post again!…what a writer, what a friend. To find these new posts- what a great “waterhole” it is. My part all muddied up and me mumblin’…and my pal’s right there to keep me upright ‘till the water clears.

Things are good or at least better. I recognize this is just one of those days when you’re glad it’s tomorrow….? Made since when I thought it.

Thanks for...being here.
Mike

ORIGINAL: lhansen

ORIGINAL: foxwolfen


Bailey's Irish Cream...

Damn you! Now I have to go get some!!! I like mine in a glass with lot's of ice. Yum!!!!

That is for later... but not before five LOL

ORIGINAL: lhansen

ORIGINAL: foxwolfen

ORIGINAL: lhansen

ORIGINAL: foxwolfen


Bailey's Irish Cream...

Damn you! Now I have to go get some!!! I like mine in a glass with lot's of ice. Yum!!!!

That is for later... but not before five LOL

If I'm not mistaken, I just looked at the clock an it's after 5AM!!! Glug, glug, glug!!!!!

Actually, its after five in England is it not? Cheers Mate, God Save the Queen and all that!

Michael

It is interesting how your observations make a lot of sense. In many ways I think you are right. Even in large cities, live venues are harder and harder to find.

I will also admit at being disturbed at mass one day when we had what I called a Karaoke Choir. Seemed kinda lazy to me. It made me wonder at the state of the world... instant everything, disposable everything... non-effort, non-permanent... and that bothered me a lot.

Music today is very much disposable. I will admit to doing so myself. I do not listen to much much from the 80's at all. It seemed like good music stopped (at least in rock and roll) to be replaced with never ending regurgitation of the same old stuff.

The mode of communication has changed dramatically in our lifetime. IMO, the Internet is the single most important advancement of human kind since the invention of the wheel. We can say that we were alive at the most important moment in history... the birth of instant information access and universal distribution.

When taken on the surface, the overwhelming potential of the internet also seems like an overwhelming block to success... while we can get our message out to every human in the world... so can they... thus we are both empowered and dis-empowered at the same time.

Yet when we look deeper what do we really see? We see a whole new world that can be tapped, but it will take a whole new way. When we look at it in a Social Darwinism sort of way, there will some among us who can look into those murky depths and see clearly what needs to be done to climb to the top of the "food chain". They will be the ones to succeed in the new paradigm, and the rest of us will still be doing what the rest of us have always done, which is say "I could have done that" - failing to admit of course that, while we "could have", we did not...

So really, its just status quo my friend... same sh*t, different pile. Opportunity presents itself... who will be the one to grab the brass ring?

Cheers
Shad

ORIGINAL: spacey

In my life I’ve seen the goal of being in a band replaced by home recording for most musicians.
When I started playing professionally in 1970 I knew bands that made a living playing “circuits”. I believe I saw the tail-end of the possibility of an average band being able to make a living with music.

That was before the invention of the personal computer, ipods, etc.

ORIGINAL: spacey

Many things changed that contributed to eliminating the “average” band having a way to make a living. Disco clubs, drinking laws and the cost of hiring a band are some of the reasons.

Like a new century?

ORIGINAL: spacey

Now musicians are seeing “tools” to use that really don’t need much more than someone to hit play.

So does that mean hits are always good music? I don't think so.

ORIGINAL: spacey

I believe musicians are not needed for creating music anymore. A composer is all the electronic age needs and music generating software is quickly threatening the need of a human composer.

You are confusing composer with musician. Any monkey can buy software and cut-n-paste together a composition of something. (check out the Sonar forums) The results usually end up to sounding like an artificial overproduced collection of loops. however, only true musicians can capture the expressiveness and emotional feeling of the art.

ORIGINAL: spacey

Now musicians with the desire for others to hear their music are posting on-line asking and hoping someone will listen. Mostly other musicians listening and they’re really not listening…they spend most of their time trying to get other musicians to listen to their music after all. Where did the audience of non-musicians go? What do they listen to? The latest .99 cent low-quality download from the new one hit wonder?

Non-musicians, pretty much are plugged into their ipods. Some frome spacey's era are still listening to their generations version of the 99 cent low-quality download, the 8track.

ORIGINAL: spacey

I guess if this sad notion be correct then the most ironic part of it is that the musicians are the ones paying for their own demise.

Actually, it was caused by software programmers who were musically inept. they probably were thinking ,"If we can get the computer to play that song, we wouldn't have to learn how to actually play because real instruments require dexterity and technique. Computer programmers are uncoordinated geeks."

ORIGINAL: spacey

I’m not a writer and that is probably obvious. I also apologize for such a long, negative post but after being a member for sometime here I know there is and has been much worse. This is a bad concept to keep to myself and hopefully another at this “waterhole” will offer something to eliminate the horrible “after-taste”.
Mike

It's called progress. Be it good or bad, we have to live with it. Maybe we could all do are part in making Spacey feel better by going to the Sonar forums and requesting a rendition of Freebird.

ORIGINAL: pistolpete

ORIGINAL: spacey

In my life I’ve seen the goal of being in a band replaced by home recording for most musicians.
When I started playing professionally in 1970 I knew bands that made a living playing “circuits”. I believe I saw the tail-end of the possibility of an average band being able to make a living with music.

That was before the invention of the personal computer, ipods, etc.

ORIGINAL: spacey

Many things changed that contributed to eliminating the “average” band having a way to make a living. Disco clubs, drinking laws and the cost of hiring a band are some of the reasons.

Like a new century?

ORIGINAL: spacey

Now musicians are seeing “tools” to use that really don’t need much more than someone to hit play.

So does that mean hits are always good music? I don't think so.

ORIGINAL: spacey

I believe musicians are not needed for creating music anymore. A composer is all the electronic age needs and music generating software is quickly threatening the need of a human composer.

You are confusing composer with musician. Any monkey can buy software and cut-n-paste together a composition of something. (check out the Sonar forums) The results usually end up to sounding like an artificial overproduced collection of loops. however, only true musicians can capture the expressiveness and emotional feeling of the art.

ORIGINAL: spacey

Now musicians with the desire for others to hear their music are posting on-line asking and hoping someone will listen. Mostly other musicians listening and they’re really not listening…they spend most of their time trying to get other musicians to listen to their music after all. Where did the audience of non-musicians go? What do they listen to? The latest .99 cent low-quality download from the new one hit wonder?

Non-musicians, pretty much are plugged into their ipods. Some frome spacey's era are still listening to their generations version of the 99 cent low-quality download, the 8track.

ORIGINAL: spacey

I guess if this sad notion be correct then the most ironic part of it is that the musicians are the ones paying for their own demise.

Actually, it was caused by software programmers who were musically inept. they probably were thinking ,"If we can get the computer to play that song, we wouldn't have to learn how to actually play because real instruments require dexterity and technique. Computer programmers are uncoordinated geeks."

ORIGINAL: spacey

I’m not a writer and that is probably obvious. I also apologize for such a long, negative post but after being a member for sometime here I know there is and has been much worse. This is a bad concept to keep to myself and hopefully another at this “waterhole” will offer something to eliminate the horrible “after-taste”.
Mike

It's called progress. Be it good or bad, we have to live with it. Maybe we could all do are part in making Spacey feel better by going to the Sonar forums and requesting a rendition of Freebird.

Wow! Really Pete? I am a computer programmer... am I an uncoordinated geek?

Er.... well, actually... I guess I am... oh well..

*pours another Bailey's*

ORIGINAL: jamesg1213

Pete, even by your standards, that was an appallingly ill-thought out, badly written, poorly spelled and tragically uninteresting post, which as usual said much more about you than the subject at hand.

Plus ca change, as they say in Wales.

LMAO

Classic...

I love this part "tragically uninteresting"... that is a keeper.

And why wasn't I informed that the cretin had woken from his coma?

Shad, James - you've let me down guys

And you're talkin' Baileys too - I just love that stuff

Apparently the cock-a-neys mix it 50:50 with Malibu to form a cocktail.

Or was that disinfectant

“I believe musicians are not needed for creating music anymore. A composer is all the electronic age needs and music generating software is quickly threatening the need of a human composer.”

Musicianship vs composition …when I think about what’s important to me as far as a listening experience, I come up with this.

My order of preference:

Great song performed by great players/singers

Great song performed by good players /singers

Great song performed by mediocre players /singers

Good song performed by great players /singers

Good song performed by good players /singers

Good song performed by mediocre players /singers

Mediocre song performed by great /players/singer

Mediocre song performed by good players/singers

Mediocre song performed by mediocre players/singers


All else goes into the crapper (a bad song no matter how well played does nothing for me – and it only goes downhill from there)

So for me, it’s the song and as long as there’s a decent level of performance, I’m generally happy with it. For that reason, computer aided recording (loops. Midi, editing) is fine by me even though it might not involve those that devote their lives to being great players.

As far as what to do about an audience – I’ve got no answer - the environment has changed so much in the last fifty years. The impact of media has had a profound effect on the very definition of an “audience”. When I just started playing guitar (1961), I was the only one I knew who played – a few years later many kids in the neighborhood played. Now, just about everybody plays – the mystique is gone. Guitar Hero is an even weirder offshoot of the rock musician mentality – why learn to play when you have an audience willing to cheer you for pretending to play. Mondo Bizzaro my friends.

So, here’s just another opinion.