Helpful ReplyOdd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input

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AndyB01
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2015/11/16 15:25:48 (permalink)

Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input

Running Sonar X3 64-bit on a Win10 64-bit box (6-core AMD CPU, 16Gb RAM, twin SSD) so more than enough grunt to run X3 which it has done happily for many years. Soundcard is a firewire Saffire LE (getting on a bit but still works fine).
 
I have a few soft synths, Dim Pro, Pianissimo, TruePianos & EzKeys, some of which can be played in stand alone mode. When I do this (using ASIO drivers) they play perfectly and sound as they should - using a midi controller or digital piano. When I load them in Sonar however, the sound like they are being played underwater, tinny, horrible echoey type noise, reminiscent of a really cheap and nasty reverb. Oddly however, if I import a midi track and use the playback in Sonar - the sound renders perfectly.
 
So I'm guessing it isn't the soundcard as they play perfectly in stand alone mode and I'm down to a setting somewhere in the Sonar Preferences - but which one is the problem - I really don't have clue. Have been through the X3 manual and defaulted all the settings - no change. Have tried switching from ASIO to a different driver and running wave profiler - same problem and even uninstalling and reinstalling the LE.
 
Slightly at my wits end here - appreciate there is not much to go on and a whole of potential causes but anybody have any idea what might be causing this or how I might go about troubleshooting it? Short of a full uninstall and reinstall of Sonar - I'm about out of tricks and I really don't want to go down that route.
 
Any assistance very much appreciated - latest Sonar X3 patch is installed btw.
 
Andy

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    Michael_TW
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/16 17:06:14 (permalink)
    I am having a very similar problem. I saw your post topic and thought Great! someone has solved it, and then I saw that you posted it one hour ago :(.
     
    1) I have Sonar Artist and am using midi input via USB from my Yamaha DTX-532k set. When I play and when I do playback the session drummer 3 sounds also sound distorted and have additional reverb (sound terrible!). I switched to less sampled drums (instead of the Steven Slate sizzlekit wet) and also purchased a proper audio interface (Steinberg UR-12) but am still having the same problem with sound quality during playback and when I down-mix into an audio track. However, if I just bang on the session drummer interface while monitoring it sounds fine.
     
    2) On a side note, some of the midi tracks really seem to be saturating the output channel (snare and kick). Even when I turn the snare volume down 2/3, the master bus is still redlining. I also set the drum map velocity to 90%. I have no idea what is happening here. I found a youtube video from 8 years ago that said you should turn down the "output trim by 6 dB to avoid overloading your inputs" but I couldn't find a control for that in Sonar Artist. I assume that the midi track has some audio track analog properties to fit in with Sonar's physical plug and play analogy, but I have no idea how to adjust it.
     
    I am new to Sonar last week and am assuming that this is an esoteric, versionitis issue. Finding answers in their help documentation that applies to your particular version is challenging. I have had more success with Youtube videos.
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    Michael_TW
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/16 17:43:56 (permalink)
    I think I have an idea. Because I am using a laptop, I have not seen the top half of the track inspector view, but there is an input "gain" knob at the top. When I get home I am going to reduce that by -6dB and see if that helps. I am thinking we are maybe getting artifacts from redlining the track. Let me know what you find.
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    JonD
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/16 20:20:51 (permalink)
    AndyB01
    ....
    I have a few soft synths, Dim Pro, Pianissimo, TruePianos & EzKeys, some of which can be played in stand alone mode. When I do this (using ASIO drivers) they play perfectly and sound as they should - using a midi controller or digital piano. When I load them in Sonar however, the sound like they are being played underwater, tinny, horrible echoey type noise....



    Is this happening in a brand new project?  If you haven't already, you might try deleting the aud.ini file and restarting to let Sonar recreate it. 
     
    If that doesn't help, you might as well do a complete uninstall of Sonar (including leftover folders and registry entries), then reinstall.  Reboot, then do same with interface drivers.
    post edited by JonD - 2015/11/16 20:34:19

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    dan le
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/16 20:49:53 (permalink)
    Hi Michael and Andy:
    There are 2 ways to get a soft synth going in Sonar.
    First is the creation of 1 track soft synth, and second is the creation of 1 midi track and an audio track.
    So which one are you using?
    If one does not work well, then try the other way.
    Also you mentioned that you are using Asio, did you have the latency to low, like 128 samples?
    dan
     
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    Michael_TW
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/16 22:17:39 (permalink)
    I insert a soft synth, with synth track folder . Using a drum map for my Yamaha DTX-532k drums which only took me an entire week to figure out how to do. (its now saved as a track template thank jebus) (9 tracks + midi control track + audio track with guitar)
     
    I am trying to use Sonar to jam to some guitar tracks a friend is recording. So I am importing an audio file as well. I then play along to the audio file and the synth sounds bad. Prior to recording, session drummer steven slate sizzlekit wet sounds great. 
     
    I have a steinberg UR-12 using ASIO drivers with current settings:
    Sampling rate: 44100kHz
    triangular dithering selected
     
    ASIO Panel: 512 samples, 11.6 msec latency
    roundtrip reported latency: 35.9 ms
     
    file system: 
    write and read caching enabled 1024 kb buffer
    using ASIO reported latency for adjustment 
     
    playback: 
    1024 ms buffer always echo current midi track turned on
     
    Note: I just adjusted the input gain on the midi control track which takes my drums as input and outputs to the synth tracks to -6. It seems to have made some improvements. But I still seem to be getting audio drop-outs on playback and terrible sounding drums. And if I double click the session drummer icon and tap the drums with my mouse they sound fine. 
     
    #6
    Michael_TW
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/16 22:31:18 (permalink)
    system properties
     
    OS Name Microsoft Windows 10 Pro
    Version 10.0.10240 Build 10240
    OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation
    System Manufacturer LENOVO
    System Model 11433BU
    System Type x64-based PC
    System SKU Unsupported
    Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-2310M CPU @ 2.10GHz, 2100 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)
    BIOS Version/Date LENOVO 8HET44WW(1.26), 8/7/2013
    SMBIOS Version 2.6
    BIOS Mode Legacy
    BaseBoard Manufacturer LENOVO
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    AndyB01
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/17 05:13:25 (permalink)
    Glad it's not just me! Some great suggestions here thanks that I will try later. I did delete the aud.ini file but the problem persists. Will post how I get on, I know it's fixable hopefully without resorting the nuclear option. I don't use read/ write caching as I thought that was only recommended for older IDE drives and not SATA or SSDs like mine - but happy to be corrected if that's not the case.

    Thanks all for your replies so far.

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    bvideo
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/17 10:27:36 (permalink)
    Sounds like there could be doubling of MIDI events from the controller. You could try setting the track midi input to accept only one port/channel. Or check your keyboard's config. 

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    jatoth
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/17 12:43:32 (permalink)
    Sounds like combfiltering to me. As bvideo pointed out, make sure you are routing ALL midi correctly and not duplicating the input to the soft synths.
     

    John
     
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    Michael_TW
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/17 13:47:22 (permalink)
    Thanks for the ideas. So I think I have 2 options.

    1.I believe I have midi "Omni" selected. I will set that to channel 10. Also in my midi data track I don't see clean waveforms, there are squiggles when I expect nice triggers so your comments about midi inputs seem to be on target. Where else would I check to ensure midi inputs aren't doubled? I am using USB midi.

    2. I will also try one midi track and synth track instead of a synth folder maybe that will make processing more efficient as I am guessing multiple tracks in parallel would require more pre-allocated memory.

    Any other ideas?
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/17 14:33:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Michael_TW 2015/11/17 15:41:58
    I think the two posters are encountering different issues.
     
    The OP's case definitely sounds like multiple Note On messages double-triggering the synth and causing phase cancellation issues. This can happen if the track input is set to a specific port and Omni channels or All Inputs - Omni, and the keyboard is sending on multiple ports and/or channels or there's a soft synth with MIDI Out enabled that's echoing MIDI input (unusual, and won't be happening with something like TruePianos that doesn't have MIDI Out). Setting MIDI/Instrument track inputs to a specific port and channel is a best practice to avoid problems, but you should also make sure your controller is sending on only one port and channel at a time, unless you're deliberately doing some multitimbral/layering thing.
     
    Regarding Michael_TW's "squiggles" in MIDI tracks recorded from an e-drum kit, that sounds like controller messages from the Hi Hat pedal that may not be compatible with Session Drummer. Check the PRV controller pane or Event List view. I recall having to delete controllers from some 3rd-party MIDI files because the Hi Hat controller messages were wreaking havoc with SessionDrummer.
     
     
     
     

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/17 14:54:51 (permalink)
    It might benefit you by upping your Prepare Using nnn Millisecond Buffers
     
    Preferences > Midi > Playback and Recording > Prepare Using nnn Millisecond Buffers
     
    The default is 250ms. Try going up in multiples of 250 and see if this improves things.

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    Michael_TW
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/17 15:35:02 (permalink)
     
    Thanks to everyone for all the feedback, it is much appreciated!!
     
    brundlefly
     
    Regarding Michael_TW's "squiggles" in MIDI tracks recorded from an e-drum kit, that sounds like controller messages from the Hi Hat pedal that may not be compatible with Session Drummer. Check the PRV controller pane or Event List view. I recall having to delete controllers from some 3rd-party MIDI files because the Hi Hat controller messages were wreaking havoc with SessionDrummer.




    Is it possible to negate these commands in real-time by editing my drum map? I guess I first have to identify the commands in the event list. The whole point is to be able to "Jam" to an audio track into Midi so I can play with the drum sounds after and tweak things. We are trying to do the equivalent of email for jamming music.
     
     
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/17 17:14:29 (permalink)
    Michael_TW
    Thanks for the ideas. So I think I have 2 options.

    1.I believe I have midi "Omni" selected. I will set that to channel 10. Also in my midi data track I don't see clean waveforms, there are squiggles when I expect nice triggers so your comments about midi inputs seem to be on target. Where else would I check to ensure midi inputs aren't doubled? I am using USB midi.

    2. I will also try one midi track and synth track instead of a synth folder maybe that will make processing more efficient as I am guessing multiple tracks in parallel would require more pre-allocated memory.

    Any other ideas?

    I think the squiggles you are seeing are the Midi notes you've recorded.
     
    You wouldn't see a clean audio waveform until the Midi has been rendered to Audio
     
    Check for doubled notes by viewing your Midi track in Staff View.
    Any doubles will appear either side of the Stalk
     
    The best way, IMHO to initiate any soft synth is to simply go Insert > Soft Synth > Session Drummer and from the Insert Soft Synth Options page, put a check mark against:
     
    Under "Create These Tracks"
    Synth Track Folder
    Midi Source
    All Synth Audio Outputs: Mono
    Enable midi Output
     
    Under "Open These Windows"
    Synth Property Page
     
    Ask This Every Time
     
     
    You can attenuate all of the drum tracks from Sessions Drummers Mixer Page - I run BFD2/3 and always attenuate the output by 10dB, again from the Mixer page
     
     

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    brundlefly
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/18 01:31:30 (permalink)
    Michael_TW
     
    Thanks to everyone for all the feedback, it is much appreciated!!
     
    brundlefly
     Regarding Michael_TW's "squiggles" in MIDI tracks recorded from an e-drum kit, that sounds like controller messages from the Hi Hat pedal that may not be compatible with Session Drummer. Check the PRV controller pane or Event List view. I recall having to delete controllers from some 3rd-party MIDI files because the Hi Hat controller messages were wreaking havoc with SessionDrummer.



    Is it possible to negate these commands in real-time by editing my drum map? I guess I first have to identify the commands in the event list. The whole point is to be able to "Jam" to an audio track into Midi so I can play with the drum sounds after and tweak things. We are trying to do the equivalent of email for jamming music.
     

     
    If it is controllers messages causing trouble, you can either stop them from being transmitted by the drum brain, block them with a MIDI port utility like MIDI-OX before they get to SONAR, or filter them at the track output using a MIDI FX like SONAR's MIDI Event Filter. SONAR itself has no ability to block controllers at input, and Drum Maps only operate on note events. You can disable recording all controllers in Preferences, but that won't stop them from being echoed during rehearsal and recording, and it will interfere with recording sustain and other controllers from keyboards if you ever use them. Stopping them from being transmitted in the first place would be best if it's possible.
     
     
     

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    scook
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/18 08:38:46 (permalink)
    brundlefly
    SONAR itself has no ability to block controllers at input

    Won't the check boxes in Preferences > MIDI > Playback and Recording restrict data coming into SONAR?
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    Michael_TW
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/19 02:23:31 (permalink)
    Hello All, and thank you for all the advice. I believe I have solved most of my problems that were preventing me from jamming to a random guitar audio track with midi driven synth drums. I think that getting it to sound good will be another journey.
     
    For reference, the yamaha dtx502 module has a GM kit, (kit #50) which outputs standardized midi messages precluding the necessity of a customized drum map. Also the HH controller seems better behaved. 
     
    I do believe that the echoing had to do with MIDI OMNI being selected in the session drummer input, which i have set to channel 10 to match the drum module. The squiggles I guess are how Sonar represents CC events in the PRV. (they are in fact vertical bars but depending on your zoom level can have a "squiggly" appearance, or so say I)
     
    My laptop is definitely underpowered for this type of stuff, but the UR-12 seems to be keeping up with my playback and recording with 1024 ms buffers and 512 samples on the ASIO buffer. I do seem to get audio engine dropouts still but I don't want to increase the latency further. I just have to be careful to take my time entering commands.
     
    Thanks for the heads up on the various locations for gain control. All in all, this is a very neat program, I am looking forward to playing with it further. 
     
    Sorry AndyB01 for hijacking your thread, I hope you solved your problems as well.
     
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/19 10:46:59 (permalink)
    Michael_TW
    playback and recording with 1024 ms buffers.



    I think that's probably higher than needed, and too-high disk buffers can cause other problems. I don't have particularly state-of-the art disks on my system, and have no trouble running high track counts at 256kB. IIRC, the default might even be 128kB, which should work fine in most cases.

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    brundlefly
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/20 00:38:37 (permalink)
    scook
    brundlefly
    SONAR itself has no ability to block controllers at input

    Won't the check boxes in Preferences > MIDI > Playback and Recording restrict data coming into SONAR?


    Missed this until now. Those checkboxes only affect recording of the different message types. They'll still pass into the track and be echoed out in real time unless blocked at the output by a MIDI FX.


     

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    AndyB01
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/11/21 04:10:08 (permalink)
    @Michael_TW no worries mate - glad it's sorted, I haven't quite nailed it yet as not had much time but it definitely sounds like the multiple messages is the problem - I just need to unpick the responses and apply to my setup then hopefully get back to the music
    post edited by AndyB01 - 2015/11/21 04:21:16

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    AndyB01
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    Re: Odd Sonar X3 Problem - poor sound quality from soft synths on midi input 2015/12/23 11:06:43 (permalink)
    Just got around to trying to apply some of these fixes and finally sussed it - the problem ony occured with my M-Audio Oyxgen 49 controller and not my Roland digital piano. I was using the M-Audio and happened to accidentally catch one of the sliders which altered the synth sound (made it sound like a Bontempi piano) so after a process of elimination and setting all but one of the sliders and their corresponding pots on the controller to zero - that has fixed the problem. Digital audio eh - never fails to rock up something new to scratch your head over.
     
    Thanks all.
     
    Andy

    Sonar Platinum, Win10 Pro 64-bit, 16Gb RAM, Six-core AMD, Twin SSD. Instruments: Roland A88 and Taylor 314CE all through a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4. More ambition than talent.

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