Helpful ReplyOk, seriously pissed off

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MelodicJimmy
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2015/12/28 00:48:37 (permalink)

Ok, seriously pissed off

I've read, I've researched, I've asked questions.... nothing.  My projects keep changing keys.  I spend a lot of time recording these songs and pieces and they're totally screwed up and I'm really, really annoyed.  It seems to be a MIDI-related issue because I don't think my projects WITHOUT MIDI are affected. 
 
Basically, what happens is that I record the guitars and sometimes bass and use SD3 as the drum track (project template, multi-outs) and then use either True Piano or Rapture as my piano or other sound.  Generally, the recording of the actual part is fine.  Once I close out of Sonar or restart the computer (see below for gear), the project has dropped about a whole step.  I know I posted something similar to this a few days ago, but I don't get it.  What's going on?
post edited by MelodicJimmy - 2015/12/28 01:01:50

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#1
Lord Tim
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/28 02:16:27 (permalink)
What's your sample rate set to in your project? Sometimes Windows can get flaky when switching from 44.1 to 48 when going from sounds played in, say, Windows Media Player and then back to SONAR. If you set SONAR to your system sample rate (or vice versa), does it still happen?
 

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KPerry
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/28 02:48:16 (permalink)
Is it the MIDI tracks or the audio in a project with MIDI tracks too? If the former, that sounds like spurious controller or sysex messages being sent on file open.

If the latter, I'm stumped.
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brundlefly
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/28 03:03:08 (permalink)
I agree with Tim. 'about a whole step' has to be sample rate changing from 48 to 44.1 - probably due to some multimedia app changing the rate in between SONAR sessions. But there must also be some miscommunication between SONAR and the driver about what the sample rate is or SONAR should be able to correct it. A quick search did not find a Win10 driver for the C600. If the Win8 driver hasn't been certified to work under Win10, anything is possible.

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subtlearts
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/28 05:10:34 (permalink)
agreed, almost certainly a sample rate issue. 

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dannyjmusic
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/28 06:58:54 (permalink)
When did all this start? Try to figure if anything changed
If you know the approximate date
Try restoring your computer back before that date
Couldn't hurt
Checked for malware?
#6
MelodicJimmy
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/28 08:06:59 (permalink)
Thanks for all of your help, even though I seemed irate.  I'm sorry, it was late and I was quite frustrated.  The sampling rate was set to 441000 in both my interface software and Sonar.  I didn't realize that other apps could change that sampling rate.  How does one advoid this? 
 
KPerry - it's happening when I do this:  "INSERT-MIDI TRACK, then INSERT-[whatever soft synth]." 
 
I just reinstalled Sonar and a very quick playback of one of the affected projects seems to be in the right key, however..... I'm not going to celebrate just yet.... I will update later.  Thank you all again!
post edited by MelodicJimmy - 2015/12/28 08:19:43

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#7
Lord Tim
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/28 08:14:29 (permalink)
If it happens again (fingers crossed it doesn't, of course), try bouncing down the project to a file and see if that's at the right pitch. If that's different as well, then I'd start to look at controller issues like was mentioned above.
 
Are you running any Windows system sounds? Boot up? Errors, etc.? Try disabling those.
 
Have you got a webcam that has its own audio driver? A lot do these days, that that could be stealing the driver focus. Go into your Device Manager and see if you can disable every audio device except for your recording gear.
 
And yeah, frustrating as hell isn't it? I've had to re-insert the keys a few times on my computer keyboard from getting angry when everything has gone south after a very long session! Perhaps I need some anger management classes or something? HAHA! I don't think anyone here could hold an angry post against you - we've all been there. 

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MelodicJimmy
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/28 09:07:01 (permalink)
Ok, here's an update: 
 
Reinstalled Sonar completely.  Sonar, Guitar Rig 5, Dimension Pro, Rapture.  Everything.  The good news is that my projects are now playing in the correct key. 
 
The bad (and weird) news is this:  
 
I have three projects that I've been working on.  Two of the projects were in the wrong key AND the MIDI was out of tune.  Now, those two are perfectly fine, including MIDI. 
 
But, now I'm trying to add a keyboard part to the third project and the f'ing MIDI is completely out of tune with my guitar part.  So, I'm back to my problem of the other day when I had posted that my Keystation MIDI controller was not in the correct key.  I know it's not the controller because two of my other projects are perfectly fine. 
 
So, what is going on to make soft synths out of tune with everything else?  Lord Tim, I did disable Windows sounds by the way.  I don't need them anyway.  It didn't make a difference with the MIDI issue.
 
 
 
 
 

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#9
mettelus
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/28 09:58:36 (permalink)
In the event viewer are there any non-note events? It is possible to have the pitch/mod wheels drift from zero (physically) which can be recorded by SONAR.

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Lord Tim
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/28 10:58:30 (permalink)
Yep, I had an old MIDI keyboard that would sporadically send all kinds of weird stuff into my sequencer, including pitch bend and aftertouch info - that could easily do things like change the pitch on your tracks. Definitely worth unplugging your controller just for troubleshooting.
 
Did you try bouncing down the offending file and seeing if it was still out of tune?
 
 

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MelodicJimmy
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/28 23:27:17 (permalink)
Thanks for all of your help.  I ended up just going for Platinum.  This was turning into a nightmare and I just don't have time for this crap. 

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#12
Anderton
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 00:06:08 (permalink)
Did Platinum solve the issue?

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MelodicJimmy
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 01:19:38 (permalink)
No and I am beyond angry right now.  I called Cakewalk today about X2 (before I decided to get Platinum) and the tech guy says, "we don't support X2 anymore, but I'll send you some suggestions in your e-mail, you'll get it in five minutes."  Nothing.  Now, the same f'ing thing is happening and I have NO help. 
 
I guess I'm moving to Cubase if I don't figure this out.  Maybe they'll actually help me with their products.  I would hope....

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williamcopper
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 02:41:59 (permalink)
For your midi tracks:   Do you ever intentionally change the pitch via transpose?  Do you ever change the pitch via pitch wheel?
 
If you do either of these thinking you've changed only one area and you have accidentally changed a much larger area, then that could be a culprit.   I've done both.   Sonar's selection is very peculiar in many situations ... you can easily have an actual selection that is completely different than what you think it is.   This happens to me for transpose, pitch change, velocity change, and length --- all at one time or another.
post edited by williamcopper - 2015/12/29 02:54:25
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brundlefly
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 02:45:12 (permalink)
Check the pitch of the guitar audio file in another player. possibly there was a clocking problem while it was being recorded and the file header is saying it's 44.1 when the interface clock was actually running at 48.

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Lord Tim
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 02:50:25 (permalink)
If you're willing to upload a CWB of a small project that has the problem (to Dropbox or something like that), I'd be happy to take a quick look at it for you. 

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MelodicJimmy
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 09:07:06 (permalink)
You guys are awesome!  I'll reply to you all more directly later, I have to go to work.  One thing that might help:  when I open the standalone version of Rapture Session (was just testing out the pitch), the onscreen keyboard says it's the correct note, but it's not.  It's a whole step off.  So, I go into the edit function of the controller, make it go down two half steps so it's the right note, power the unit off, turn it back on, open Rapture again.... back to being the wrong note. 
 
Lord Tim, I'm going to take you up on that.... I'll be back later.  Thank you all once again!

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#18
brucebark
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 11:44:23 (permalink)
Have you tried using the free MIDIOX utility (search goggle for their website) to see if your M-Audio Keystation is sending the correct MIDI codes? This utility has been very helpful for solving some of the MIDI gremlins I've had. 
post edited by brucebark - 2015/12/29 11:57:21

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Anderton
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 11:50:59 (permalink)
There are so many reasons why this could be happening, but I'd bet none of them is due to something happening within SONAR. SONAR can only do what it's told to do. Something is feeding it bogus information. There's no guarantee another DAW would solve your problem.
 
I suggest borrowing a different interface and controller to see what happens. Also, if the controller has some sort of reset function, use that.
 
If the problem is outside of SONAR it's not surprising that support can't help. If it is inside of SONAR, it seems virtually impossible that no one else has experienced this problem.

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MelodicJimmy
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 12:31:31 (permalink)
Still at work, but just a quick reply....definitely going to reply more later. Yes, I kinda am leaning towards it not being Sonar. I did what M-Audio suggested as a reset.....it didn't work.

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#21
tlw
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 14:53:10 (permalink)
I second installing MidiOX and taking a look at what the MIDI data passing in and out of Sonar and the controller actually is. Spurious pitch-bend data might well cause the problem you're describing, and I've certainly come across keyboard controllers that didn't accurately centre their pitch wheels but would once in a while trickle out pitch-bend instructions.

I might be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but from your description at least part of the problem seems to be MIDI related.

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MarioD
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 20:50:30 (permalink)
I have a general question.  If if were spurious pitch-bend data wouldn't one see that in an automation track?  I know all of my intentional pitch bend data shows up there.
 
If the pitch bend data is not there then it isn't a pitch bend program right?  If it is there delete it, play the song a few time and see if the problem come back.  If it does doesn't  record another track and see what happens.  If it shows up again it probably is the keyboard.
 
I don't mess with key transposition via a soft synth so I don't know if this actually would apply but if one can assign a MIDI control to it maybe that is the problem.
post edited by MarioD - 2015/12/29 21:11:08

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#23
MelodicJimmy
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/29 23:11:23 (permalink)
First of all, I love you guys.  You're all awesome.  Secondly, here's a little update:  I called Cakewalk today, spoke to another tech guy.  Awesome dude, I don't know his name.  He was kind of stumped, himself, considering the sampling rates matched.  He was VERY skeptical that it was Sonar, as were all of you guys.  He asked if I had changed USB ports for my interface - I had done that because I had transported the interface to work with me (guitar instructor) and plugged it into a different computer. 
 
After I spoke to him (I was driving, so I wasn't near my computer), I called my wife to check something.  Just by accident, she unplugged my interface's USB, then put it back into a DIFFERENT USB port.  I get home, laptop is already on from when she had it on earlier.  Keyboard is in tune!  YAY!  Not time for celebration.  I power off.... PRAY.... LOL... computer comes on.... fire up controller..... fire up Rapture.... PRAY LOL ..... choose "grand concert piano" ..... PRAY MORE LOL..... I hit a low E...... SOUNDS RIGHT!  Get out my phone.  DREAM THEATER.  PULL ME UNDER.  Perfect way to check it.  FIRST NOTE.  BOOM.  DEAD NUTS. 
 
Now, time to see what happens in projects.  Big test.  If you guys don't mind checking this thread for another day or two?  I'm going to give the final verdict hopefully by tomorrow.  Please forgive me for not replying to everyone specifically - I DID read ALL the posts and I truly appreciate all the suggestions.  It might be fixed.  If it isn't, I will start going through all the things people have suggested.  Thanks .... thus far.  PRAYING LOL....

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#24
MelodicJimmy
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/30 00:25:25 (permalink)
Awesome news so far.  Projects ARE working!  At least recording, haven't tried saving yet and reopening yet.  Update in the morning.  Anyone else ever hear of this happening?  Just because of a different USB port?

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#25
MelodicJimmy
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/30 00:48:05 (permalink)
Another update..... recorded a quick project with my guitar (GR5) and Rapture using my MIDI controller.  Everything was perfect.  Saved it, reopened.  Perfect.  Rebooted.  Opened this project, about two half steps too HIGH.  Yes, it was higher.  WTF
 
Pissed.  Unplugged interface, uninstalled interface driver.  Reinstalled interface driver.  Boom.  Perfect.  Restarted.  BOOM.  Perfect.  Hoping it stays that way. 
 
Conclusion:  it's definitely not the MIDI controller.  It's 100% the interface.  I don't know why it's freaking out, but that's what it was.  Probably going to pick up another one at some point because I can't take the uncertainty of "maybe it'll work today, maybe it'll make my life a living hell for like four days until I figure WTF is wrong."  (I do a lot of recording LOL)
 
EDIT:
 
By the way, on a sidenote, although related to this.... NOT happy with M-Audio.  Bought this in late 2012 in good faith because of reliability and performance of Keystation 88 controller.  A year or so later, M-Audio sells a bunch of products to Avid.  Bye bye support for C-600.  M-Audio sold it, Avid doesn't care.  Product completely in "limbo" and probably forever.  Too bad, awesome interface, would hate to switch to another one.  Oh well.  Thanks everyone. 
 
post edited by MelodicJimmy - 2015/12/30 01:03:35

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#26
CoteRotie
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/30 01:45:24 (permalink)
Lord Tim
Yep, I had an old MIDI keyboard that would sporadically send all kinds of weird stuff into my sequencer, including pitch bend and aftertouch info - that could easily do things like change the pitch on your tracks. Definitely worth unplugging your controller just for troubleshooting.
 
Did you try bouncing down the offending file and seeing if it was still out of tune?
 
 


+1 
I had an old USB M-Audio keyboard that was doing exactly that.  When I unplugged it the weirdness stopped. They were no longer supporting or doing driver updates for this keyboard so I wound up getting a new keyboard and everything has been fine since.

Wait, wait, what key is it in? 

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#27
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/30 02:09:09 (permalink)
Had two M-Audio interfaces. Best things I ever got rid of. Always thought it was me, but it was seemingly never ending driver problems, and I can't imagine the C600 would ever talk well with Win10. Give it the ol heave ho..

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#28
Lord Tim
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/30 02:55:24 (permalink)
This really sounds like a driver fighting with something else to change the sample rate, honestly. Now that we've ruled out the keyboard sending weird data over, that's really the only thing it's pointing to.
 
So again, one last test: bounce down a mix of what you're working on when it's all in tune. The bounced down mix should sound fine when played back.
 
Then, once it screws up again, bounce down another mix then.
 
If that mix is also playing back fine (as opposed to what you're hearing in real time that's out of tune), something is changing things on the fly and we can start to narrow that down.
 
If the bounced down mix is out of tune, however, then something is definitely very screwy.

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#29
tlw
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Re: Ok, seriously pissed off 2015/12/30 05:29:54 (permalink)
There was a time M-Audio made good products and supported them with frequent driver updates.

That time was several years ago.

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#30
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