Helpful ReplyOld annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong

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slumbermachine
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2015/11/06 14:56:15 (permalink)

Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong

I post this issue here every year or so and it keeps coming back to slow me down. I'm not sure if my working process is just wrong, or if this is an actual bug (but nobody else seems to complain about it).
 
Issue Summary:
Track selection for editing requires an additional needless click
 
Steps to reproduce:
1. Add two audio tracks to a new project.
2. Fill a few bars on each track (content doesn't matter)
3. Now, without selecting a track on the left panel, select a section of the second track.
4. On the timeline, move the scrubber to the middle of the clip and press "s" to split the clip
5. Click on the first part of the clip you just split so it is highlighted.
6. "Ctrl-C" to copy
7. Move the scrubber to the end of the timeline
8. "Ctrl-V" to paste the clip
 
Result: Either the clip will paste to the wrong track, or not at all.
Expected result: If I'm already editing clips on a track, that track should by default become selected, allowing fast editing on the timeline without having to leave it to select the track again.
Workaround: After copying the clip (step 6), CLICK ON THE TRACK ON THE LEFT, then paste.
 
Why is this additional step needed? Am I doing it wrong? Anyone have a video of the correct procedure?
 
post edited by slumbermachine - 2015/11/07 16:02:38
#1
Beepster
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 15:38:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby slumbermachine 2015/11/06 19:09:27
I think if you select the track you are copying from and pasting to at the beginning of this procedure it will work as you seem to want.
 
What's probably happening is because you did not slect a track at the start it is allowing you to select the clips but another track may or may not be selected/in focus. So when you paste the clip it lands in the track that is actually selected/in focus.
 
Not sure though but if you intend to be working in a single track try selecting that track first, then do your split and clip selection, Now Time placement and paste.
 
There are some wacky disconnects between Track Selection, Clip Selection, "In Focus" selections, Time Range selections and all the various paste targets. I get confused by it myself so just always double check everything but I THINK that's how ideally Sonar wants you to work.
 
I could be totally wrong though.
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BobF
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 15:41:51 (permalink)
Beepster
I think if you select the track you are copying from and pasting to at the beginning of this procedure it will work as you seem to want.
 
What's probably happening is because you did not slect a track at the start it is allowing you to select the clips but another track may or may not be selected/in focus. So when you paste the clip it lands in the track that is actually selected/in focus.
 
Not sure though but if you intend to be working in a single track try selecting that track first, then do your split and clip selection, Now Time placement and paste.
 
There are some wacky disconnects between Track Selection, Clip Selection, "In Focus" selections, Time Range selections and all the various paste targets. I get confused by it myself so just always double check everything but I THINK that's how ideally Sonar wants you to work.
 
I could be totally wrong though.




What Beepster said.  It can be annoying at times.  I've never taken the time to lay out the steps though. 

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#3
slumbermachine
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 15:45:32 (permalink)
Thanks for the reply. Yes, if I select the track first, before editing, it works. I think the problem is, when I move the scrubber to a new location or zoom in/out somehow that selection is turning off.  I need a way to stay LOCKED IN to one track. It's not often I'm moving stuff in-between tracks, so re-selecting the track just interrupts my flow. mostly, if I want to edit something, I want to only edit it there alone.
 
Don't get me wrong, the extra selection click isn't my main complaint here, my main complaint is that if I get in a hurry and forget to reselect, I can paste to the wrong track and not find it until I hear some strange doubling in my song later on, potentially leading to a long process of rechecking the entire project for stray clips.
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jkoseattle
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 15:46:42 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby slumbermachine 2015/11/06 19:09:16
Following your steps in my head, I think I've internalized this icky workflow over the years. Actually I think the problem you're talking about is just one manifestation of a larger issue. The problem is that there appear to be several degrees of "selected". I will always automatically re-select the target track when pasting a clip. (By clicking on the track number, nowhere else!) My advice is to just get used to the fact that it's never entirely clear what is ACTUALLY selected, nor is it clear when you paste something where it's actually going to end up.
 
Here's another flavor of a similar problem:
 
1. Select an entire track, beginning to end
2. Go to another track, and Paste.
The clips will actually be pasted starting at the CURRENT LOCATION OF THE SCRUBBER, regardless of where the beginning of the clips is at the source. So, if you want to simply move a clip to a different track, but in the same location in time, make damn sure your scrubber is sitting at the beginning of the source clip, cuz your paste is going wherever that scrubber is. And I would tell you to make sure your scrubber snaps to clip boundaries if you're going to do that, but that doesn't always work. The whole experience is a little nightmare.

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#5
jkoseattle
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 15:50:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby slumbermachine 2015/11/06 19:09:12
slumbermachine
It's not often I'm moving stuff in-between tracks, so re-selecting the track just interrupts my flow. mostly, 



I've made peace with Sonar interrupting my flow at regular intervals. Cakewalk seems to have worked really hard to create a seamless "flow" --- assuming you like to work exactly the way they think you do. If your "flow" isn't their "flow" - it ain't pretty. It's very obvious when you watch their training videos. They make it look easy, because it is easy, but only if you do things EXACTLY LIKE THAT. 

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#6
Beepster
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 16:00:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby slumbermachine 2015/11/06 19:09:05
slumbermachine
Thanks for the reply. Yes, if I select the track first, before editing, it works. I think the problem is, when I move the scrubber to a new location or zoom in/out somehow that selection is turning off.  I need a way to stay LOCKED IN to one track. It's not often I'm moving stuff in-between tracks, so re-selecting the track just interrupts my flow. mostly, if I want to edit something, I want to only edit it there alone.
 
Don't get me wrong, the extra selection click isn't my main complaint here, my main complaint is that if I get in a hurry and forget to reselect, I can paste to the wrong track and not find it until I hear some strange doubling in my song later on, potentially leading to a long process of rechecking the entire project for stray clips.




hmm... Moving the Now Time (which is what I think you mean by scrubber... unless maybe you are using the actual Scrub Tool which I never use and might be the problem) shouldn't be dropping your track selection. I just check it out by selecting a track, moving the Now Time (both by clicking somewhere else in the timeline to reset it and dragging the now time to a new location). My track selection stayed active.
 
Are you resetting the Now Time (scrubber) on the Timeline or in the Track View (where the clips are)? I disabled the ability to reset the Now Time in the Track View because it did too many wacky things. I always use the Timeline. Check that out if that's the case.
 
Also which version of Sonar are you on? Sorry if you've already mentione. I'm spaced out today (strange hurricaney vibe in the air where I'm at and had to deal with meat people this morning).
 
Cheers.
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slumbermachine
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 16:18:12 (permalink)
Sorry, got the tool names wrong. When I say scrubber, I mean, moving the now time on the top of the track view.
 
So, a common method to copy loops for me:
1. Highlight the clip
2. Copy it
3. Select a new now time
4. Paste the clip (on that same track it came from).
 
and I'm on JP update. This issue has been years old now and I've posted it here a few times before. I just want like a master track selection control that can lock into a track until I manually select a different track. Zooming, changing now time, transport control changes (play, reset, stop), or clicking anywhere in the track shouldn't un-select it.
For an obscure reference, Sony Acid, always handled this perfectly. Luckily, Sonar blows it away in almost every other aspect.
post edited by slumbermachine - 2015/11/06 16:30:55
#8
Beepster
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 16:33:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby slumbermachine 2015/11/06 19:08:57
slumbermachine
Sorry, got the tool names wrong. When I say scrubber, I mean, moving the now time on the top of the track view.
 
So, a common method to copy loops for me:
1. Highlight the clip
2. Copy it
3. Select a new now time
4. Paste the clip (on that same track it came from).
 
and I'm on JP update. This issue has been years old now and I've posted it here a few times before. I just want like a master track selection control that can lock into a track until I manually select a different track. Zooming, changing now time, transport control changes (play, reset, stop), or clicking anywhere in the track shouldn't un-select it.
For an obscure reference, Sony Acid, always handled this perfectly. Luckily, Sonar blows it away in almost every other aspect.




 
Okay... I just did a few tests with and without Take Lanes open.
 
As I suspected if you select the track (so the track number turns blue) every thing you want to happen will happen.
 
So...
 
With Lanes Closed: Select the Track (so the track number turns blue) > Set Now Time to create Split (S) > Select desired section in Parent Track (click on the section... this selects the active clip in the close take lanes which is the ONLY thing that is selected) > Copy (using Ctrl C or Edit > Copy) > Reset now time > Paste (using Ctrl V or Edit > Paste). The clip section is pasted at the Now Time (and inside it's original Take Lane).
 
With Lanes Open: Well the exact same thing seems to happen.
 
I even clicked on another track in one of my tests to put a different track "In Focus" while the desired track remained selected. The exact same thing happened.
 
So just select the track you are working on BEFORE doing anything and go nuts. Should be fine. A bit of brainbending kerfutzery to keep track of Selected vs In Focus and whatnot but it works pretty much how I originally thought.
 
Cheers.
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slumbermachine
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 16:36:18 (permalink)
Cool. I'll have to play with that tonight. Thanks.
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PeterMc
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 18:14:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby slumbermachine 2015/11/06 19:08:48
I can reproduce this. I think the issue is that there is a "current track" and a "selected track" (or tracks), and these don't have to be the same. It is possible to have one track selected, and another track as the current track. Selecting a track makes it the current track, but clicking on the track icon makes this track the new current track without changing the selected track.
 
Pasting a clip adds it to the current track, not the selected track. If the current track is a bus, it simply doesn't turn up.
 
Cheers, Peter.

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Beepster
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 18:41:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby slumbermachine 2015/11/06 19:08:52
PeterMc
I can reproduce this. I think the issue is that there is a "current track" and a "selected track" (or tracks), and these don't have to be the same. It is possible to have one track selected, and another track as the current track. Selecting a track makes it the current track, but clicking on the track icon makes this track the new current track without changing the selected track.
 
Pasting a clip adds it to the current track, not the selected track. If the current track is a bus, it simply doesn't turn up.
 
Cheers, Peter.




Based on what I did earlier the pasting should happen in the selected track... not the "current" or "in focus" track. I went out of my way to try pasting with another track "in focus" and the paste landed in the selected track (not the newly in focus track).
 
There may be some hiiden settings somewhere that cause different results for different cofigs though.
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PeterMc
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 19:45:37 (permalink)
That's weird. I can't get a clip to paste in the selected track. It always pastes in the current/focus track (meaning the one with the name highlighted). I wonder what setting would change that?
 
What happens if the current track is a bus? For me, no paste happens at all.

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Beepster
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/06 20:07:37 (permalink)
PeterMc
That's weird. I can't get a clip to paste in the selected track. It always pastes in the current/focus track (meaning the one with the name highlighted). I wonder what setting would change that?
 
What happens if the current track is a bus? For me, no paste happens at all.




I'm shut down for the night so I'll have to check it out tomorrow. It's possible I made some kind of error but I was typing as I tested and honestly it worked pretty much how I expected and am used to things working.
 
Again there could be some Preferences setting or other unseen factor that alters this editing behavior I am not aware of.
 
Cheers.
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gswitz
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Re: Old annoyance, or maybe my process is wrong 2015/11/07 07:13:08 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby slumbermachine 2015/11/07 15:58:01
I believe this is one of those goofy side effects of touch. Because of ten point touch, it is possible for a user to modify a track without putting it in focus.

From the point and click days, when touch wasn't a consideration, special functionality could be enabled around the user focus. The user could only focus on one thing at a time. So, what should the behavior be with ten mouse pointers? Ten finger touch?

Now, special functions related to the track in focus can occur on ten tracks at the same time? No. So, sonar has disconnected the track interaction from the setting of focus. They even added keyboard shortcuts to alter the focus.

In the short run, this causes a good amount of user confusion, especially because most users are not using touch yet.

Most of the heavy users have adapted to these changes, but I struggled to understand when they were first introduced. For example, you can modify an envelope on a track while the track in the track inspector maps to a different track. If you assume that sonar has switched the track inspector focus when you touched the other track, you could make a mistake like modifying the volume on a track you didn't mean to using the fader in the inspector.

The bakers have never confirmed what I am saying, but I have believed it to be true for years now .

While no one has confirmed, no one has denied either.
post edited by gswitz - 2015/11/07 07:36:54

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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