pyker
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One wants to go electro
Hi 2 @ll the Sonarists here! I'm used to mixing and playing some real sounds like guitars, drums etc, but now I'd like to try some other genre. To be more precise, something like this: http://royksopp.com/ My problem is, I have no idea how to start with electro instruments, loops etc. in Sonar. I don't even have any midi keyboard, so treat me as a total beginner. I was happy to the limit if you could guide me how to start. PS. When talking about drum track I prefer to have more freedom than just mixing ready-to-go loops in wav, so I suppose I should look for some VST drum instrument (for rock music I use EZ Drummer). That's all for now - I count on your advice. mike
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techead
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/04 07:12:27
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Which version of SONAR do you use?
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pyker
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/04 07:42:45
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ORIGINAL: techead
Which version of SONAR do you use?
My own 7 burned down during HDD failure, so now I have an opportunity to work on my friend's 7 PRO. In about a month I'm going to buy 8 PRO and start from scratch anyway. So think I use 7 PRO with 8 PRO on the horizon.
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Nick P
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/04 08:28:45
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Big subject. Really there's at least two categories of skills at issue: 1) Getting familiar with what it takes to produce dance music, which is independent of any particular equipment, and 2) Figuring out how to do it with Sonar.
1) There are some good books and tutorials available. Search Amazon for Dance Music Production, etc...
2) Get Sonar 8 Power by Scott Garrigus once you get Sonar 8. There are many choices in a MIDI keyboard and/or drum controller. Many people use the Edirol PCR series because they are designed to work with Sonar. Learn about ACT, and learn about the Step Sequencer.
3) I would consider some carefully chosen drum loops to get started. I like the Loopmasters stuff, but there are of course many choices. You will need at least one virutal analog type soft-synth to work with. Rapture is a good choice, but it too has a learning curve. You'll get as many opinions on a soft-synth as you will replies to this post.
4) Most dance music producers who have commercially available stuff have been doing it a long time and have all of their tools carefully built up. They often use a combination of software synths and hardware synths.
5) The key (in my opinion) is to get a focus. For example take whatever time it requires to create drum patterns or get your drum stuff going with loops. Then work on bass parts with a soft-synth. Then go to chord and melody parts.
Bottom line: Expect to spend a huge amount of time learning the ins and outs of dance music production in general, and then specifically how to configure Sonar to get the results you want. A tall order no doubt. But really there are no shortcuts.
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pyker
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/04 17:15:20
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Well, I'm not in a hurry.
I'd like to avoid some unnecessary steps in my way to new genre.
Now I'm to buy my first ever midi keyboard, and my tips are:
- e-mu Xboard 49 (comes with full Proteus X2)
- Edirol PCR-500 (with SONAR LE, Project 5 LE, and Dimension LE)
Which one would You recommend, considering the software bundle?
Another question is, if I should look for 49- or 61 keys option. The only one thing I can do is to rely of otehr people's experience in this area since any instrument without strings speaks a foreign language for my fingers.
I also don't have a clue if Proteus X2 is a good choice and how it sounds in a real world.
PS. The first thing I'm gonna do is to bring some fresh breathe to my rock/alternative tunes. Mixing natural instruments with some virtual synths. This way I'll start with something familiar and add something new. With no shortcuts.
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techead
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/04 22:34:56
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I have SONAR 8 Producer Edition, Edirol PCR-800 MIDI keyboard controller, and an Edirol UA-25 audio device.
I would recommend the Edirol PCR-500 of the two controllers you listed that you're looking at. This is only because I am familiar with the Edirol line and that Edirol/Roland/Cakewalk have a very tight partnership and excellent integration in their product line--more so than with Cakewalk has with other manufacturers. This would hopefuly jump you ahead given that you are using SONAR.
I chose the 61-key Edirol PCR-800 instead of the PCR-300 or PCR-500. I just wanted to more keys but I didn't need 76-keys nor 88-keys anymore but less than 61 seemed to few keys to me. 76/88 weighted piano action is nice if you want piano action, but I just want semi-weighted synth action for what I do.
The Proteus X2 is a good synth. So is Dimension LE--and especially Dimension Pro. You can get Proteus XV for free from Emu and SFZ and some other synths for free from Cakewalk. There are even more synths available that are good--some free, some shareware, some full-on commercial. I use Cakewalk Rapture, Cakewalk Dimension Pro, Cakewalk Z3TA+, and a bunch of other Cakewalk synths that came with Cakewalk SONAR and Cakewalk Project5. I also have a few synths downloaded from KVR.
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Nick P
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/05 05:45:12
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If you have a license for Sonar 7 Producer, then you can purchase Sonar 8 producer for $180. Look for it to be on sale from time to time as the time of year draws close to the yearly version upgrade to Sonar 9. Sonar 8 will give you all the softsynths you need. You won't need to worry about what comes with what keyboard. If you are committed to Sonar, then the Edirol PCR keyboard is the way to go. I like a 49 for the compactness yet still having enough keys to get around (even though I also have the 61 note version - thought I might use it on live gigs). Don't get the 25 note version - not enough keys. The Edirol PCR is designed to work seamlessly with Sonar.
However if you don't own a license for any version of Sonar, then I would recommend saving the money and going with Sonar 7 Home Studio XL. It also comes with a ton of softsynths and a great price. It's probably the best value of all the Cakewalk software. It also puts you in a position to purchase Sonar at a considerable discount. I would get that now and then wait for Sonar 9, which, if history is any indication, will come out around October.
HTH.
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pyker
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/05 07:25:23
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It looks like I'll stick to Edirol.
But there's one more keyboard option. It might be Edirol PCR-M50. Maybe you know the difference between pcr-500 and pcr-m50? Is it worse, or simply different model?
mike
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vespesian
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/05 09:25:39
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1) get the 300-500-800 - they're totally integrated into sonar's ACT system.
2) buy Guru for drums. No better vst for dance/electro/glitch/etc. genres. Works really well with sonar. Session Drummer, which comes with sonar, isn't the best for this genre.
3) Try to get the full rapture (not le). Has incredible electro capabilities (even though the presets are often more 'soundscape-ish'). Learn that synth. Go to Galbanum and get their "Second Coming" - amazing electro patches for rapture - worth the $$$. Plus, do a search for the "Muzeum" patch for rapture...and it's free.
4) Use Z3ta.
5) You'll want wierd/powerful fx vst's...ie., delays that modulate, step loop, filters with an edge, unusual distortion fx.....FabFilter & Sugarbytes are 2 outfits that make great products that work well in sonar.
You're in an amazing state. So stay there.
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pyker
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/05 09:42:19
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ORIGINAL: vespesian
1) get the 300-500-800 - they're totally integrated into sonar's ACT system.
You were very helpful. But coming back to the core question: PCR 500 or 800? I started some discussions on other forums which layout is better and people mostly vote for 61 keys even though they "could" do with 49. Would you vote for 49 or 61 considering that I want/plan to: 1) Learn to play keyboard from scratch; 2) Add some synths to my rock/acoustic tunes; 3) Start some electro/minimal projests; 4) Expand somewhere near to this band's style: http://royksopp.com/ And as you mentioned Guru drums - maybe I should think of a keyboard with pads to trigger the Guru drummer? As far as I know PCR keyboards have just simple buttons...
post edited by pyker - 2009/06/05 09:47:56
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Nick P
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/05 17:28:55
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PCR - for reasons the other posters said. Do you live in the U.S.? I have a PCR-800 I would sell you at very good price. BTW - the PCR has pads you could set up to trigger drums.
post edited by Nick P - 2009/06/05 17:39:40
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vespesian
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/05 21:59:03
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You know...I get by with a 300...I don't really need all those keys, since each track/part has a fairly limited range. But if you need more, you can split or double the keyboard, increasing your octaves. Space is at premium for me - plus I don't like to have all this big gear lying around.
You're in an amazing state. So stay there.
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techead
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/05 23:37:37
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ORIGINAL: pyker
But coming back to the core question: PCR 500 or 800? I started some discussions on other forums which layout is better and people mostly vote for 61 keys even though they "could" do with 49. Would you vote for 49 or 61 considering that I want/plan to:
1) Learn to play keyboard from scratch;
2) Add some synths to my rock/acoustic tunes;
3) Start some electro/minimal projests;
4) Expand somewhere near to this band's style: http://royksopp.com/
And as you mentioned Guru drums - maybe I should think of a keyboard with pads to trigger the Guru drummer? As far as I know PCR keyboards have just simple buttons...
Use a 25 or 49 key unit for playing bass, leads, pads--you know...one-handed stuff. Get the 61 key unit if you're going to do some two-handed piano-esq stuff. Or get, a small one and a big one so you've got both for different roles.
The pads on the Edirol PCR series are velocity senstive, not just on/off switches--but you will need to use the bundled PCR editor to set them up the way you want to operate (I think they default to on/off mode).
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pyker
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/06 14:04:34
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ORIGINAL: Nick P
PCR - for reasons the other posters said. Do you live in the U.S.? I have a PCR-800 I would sell you at very good price.
Thx for care, but I live in Poland and thats somewhere in the central Europe - far away :-)
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:10:
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RE: One wants to go electro
2009/06/09 14:25:55
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who needs a PCR-800 when you have the good ol trusty mouse for composing...  my PCR-800 makes a good table to continually throw paper and books on for storage. keeps the dust off....   my next hardware purchase... 
post edited by :10: - 2009/06/09 14:38:47
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