Helpful ReplyOnline Analog Summing services

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pilutiful
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2016/06/17 06:56:04 (permalink)

Online Analog Summing services

Hi friends,
Has anyone have experience with online analog summing services? I'm considering trying it, it would be very interesting to see how much difference it makes! I have looked at http://www.thesummingstation.com f.ex. which seems interesting. I have no budget to buy the equipment required, so it's cool that they offer this.
If you have tried it (this company or any other), did you have good experience with it? any other company you can recommend?
 
BR Pilu

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bitflipper
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/17 10:14:11 (permalink)
Sounds like a scam to me.
 
"...analog summing adds separation, warmth, 3d, glue, depth, space  to your mixes."
 
This statement is at best a gross exaggeration of the benefits of analog summing, and at worst blatant propagation of audio myths to take advantage of the technically naive. "Adds separation"? Think that claim through...


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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pilutiful
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/17 11:07:10 (permalink)
bitflipper
Sounds like a scam to me.
 
"...analog summing adds separation, warmth, 3d, glue, depth, space  to your mixes."
 
This statement is at best a gross exaggeration of the benefits of analog summing, and at worst blatant propagation of audio myths to take advantage of the technically naive. "Adds separation"? Think that claim through...




First, just because one does not know a whole lot about analog, f.ex. pretty much all of the younger generation (you know... the ones who grew up with technology), doesn't mean they are technically naive. Thats just stupid on many levels. I'm even thinking you are maybe trolling :)
 
Second, this website is not the only one that claims these benefits from analog summing. You are surprised of their claims, which surprised me. I'm not even saying they are true, but I want to see what benefits it has, maybe some of them are true.
 
No need to write as if I'm naive/dumb Mr forum host.

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drewfx1
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/17 12:52:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/06/17 15:15:48
Analog summing just adds noise, distortion, crosstalk, etc. Often people who believe in it think it solves "problems" with digital summing that don't exist. There is zero magic involved. 
 
Having said that, some people might indeed subjectively like the sound of the added noise/distortion/crosstalk.
 
Also, when discussing analog summing, all of the proponents seem to be clueless about exactly what type of summing bus they are using (as if all analog summing was the same and had identical characteristics) or how the magic comes about from the summing part itself and not from introducing noise/distortion/crosstalk on individual channels, then summing them and then adding make up gain to the result (which adds more noise/distortion/crosstalk).
 
To me, when no one can give any kind of technical explanation of something and leave out the most key information, my BS antennae are on high alert.
 
YMMV.

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jeteague
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/17 12:59:26 (permalink)
Whoa there pilutiful!  I am sure that Bitflipper was trying to save you from being scammed and in no way attempting to insult you.  The world is so complex and there are so many bad guys out there that we all need any help we can get to keep our selves and our equipment (computers) safe.
   I agree with Bitflipper that the claims being made are very outlandish from a technical stand point.  It's OK to investigate new concepts and services but let's not lose site of scientific principles.  I don't want you to be scammed either!
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/17 14:01:06 (permalink)
I know various mixers and many use analog summing - mostly for adding analog hardware effects to their digital mix.  While some users insist just using nice clean analog summing helps with all the aspects mentioned by the OP, most modern professionals are leery of any benefits (or the ones I've talked to or read). 
 
A big part of the original emphasis on summing came from early digital summing, esp. protools trying to cram 120 tracks through - what was it - a 28-bit engine?.  Easy to screw that up, esp. for beginners.  But with todays well-designed hard and software I find little reason to use external, analog summing.  Although I wish I did have a nice summer, or better yet, actual console.  I've got extra hardware I could use not that I have my 2-buss filled.
 
But an on-line summing service ...

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http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
 
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tlw
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/17 15:24:03 (permalink)
I wouldn't go so far as to wonder if the site is a scam, but I'm far from sure their service is particularly useful.

The thing about analogue anything is that the sound you get out of it depends not only on the design and component quality of the equipment but also on how you set it up and the signal strength you feed into it. Anything that does summing, be it a cheap mixer or a high-end rack unit is capable of producing a wide range of different results. Unless you can control the process, or are so familiar with it and the device used that you can provide instructions to the operator, there's no certainty that the result will be to your liking.

There's also a lot of plugins that can add the kind of distortion, compression etc. that analogue mixers do. Not quite the same perhaps, but pretty close. Cakewalk's console emulator is one, Waves' NLS another. Or if you want something more extreme wait for Waves Abbey Road REDD and TG12345 console emulators to turn up at a sale price. Or get Harrison's mixbus. All of which will be yours for ever and are cheaper than that site's price for processing a single album.

Another option is to pick up an inexpensive valve preamp and decent quality valve (such as JJ or Tesla) to replace the cheap and nasty one the manufacturer fitted, pass the audio tracks out of your interface, through the preamp and back to an interface input.

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/17 17:52:10 (permalink)
I would be curious as to how they actually do it.  Do they just sum your stems for example at unity gain and you provide the stems at the right volume levels.  Or do you provide stems all at the same level and get them to sum them at precise levels etc.. Or do they sum your tracks instead of stems.  (and at what levels etc)  The website does not seem to be over clear on this.
 
A really great mix can be had ITB as well especially with the digital tools we have these days. eg Plugins and Mixbus for example.  A bad mix will still sound bad even if summed externally.  A great mix will sound great no matter how it was summed.
 
The OP may be thinking that some magic fairy dust will be sprinkled over a mediocre mix and it will be somehow magically transformed.  Maybe get back to making your mixes as good as they can be.  It's funny in that when you do a really fantastic mix, external summing does not seem to come to mind.  Or at least for me anyway.
 
There is some truth in using the finest available D to A and running all your tracks into a Neve or SSL console for example. That can sound excellent.  But now it is not the only way to achieve it though.
 
Your comments about Bitflipper’s response are also way off the mark too.  It is obvious you don’t know him very well.

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sharke
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/17 18:06:22 (permalink)
I can imagine analog summing increasing width slightly if it's introducing small differences between the left and right channels, and I get the part about analog warmth and saturation (which could also have a small gluing effect) but I've never understood the claims about "3D depth" and separation. How exactly would analog summing increase depth?

Plus, you were a bit of a dick to Bitflipper if you don't mind saying so - perhaps you should apologize for that before continuing in the discussion.

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bitflipper
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/17 20:42:10 (permalink)
pilutiful
No need to write as if I'm naive/dumb Mr forum host.



I'm sorry you took it that way. It truly was not my intention to be insulting.
 
Being technically naive has nothing to do with one's past familiarity with analog. Most young folks today are in fact technologically naive, despite being immersed in technology. They may know how to get free movies but they have no idea what the underlying technology is that gets those movies into their smartphones. And I'm not being judgmental in saying that, just acknowledging the reality that none of us can truly understand all the tech we use.
 
However, we can selectively delve deeper into specific technologies when it suits our needs. Such as when you're trying to make the best possible mixes. But researching that information takes time, and while you're getting up to speed you have to wade through a tremendous amount of misinformation. Some of it's urban mythology, some of it is intentional obfuscation in order to bamboozle consumers. It can be challenging to differentiate one from the other.
 
Yes, I do doubt their claims. Actually, no, I don't just doubt them, I refute them because they are wrong. Whether the site operator is a con artist or just misguided, the site you linked to is taking advantage of people.
 
I'll leave it to Drew or others to explain exactly why those claims are false or misleading. But trust me, they are. (OK, I'll give them one of the claims: "warmth". It may just be code for harmonic distortion, but since there's no actual definition for "warmth" in this context, then I guess it's OK to use it any way you like.)
 
But no, pilutiful, I do not think you are "dumb". I'm just afraid you're about to hand over a buck because you think you might know which cup the pea is under. 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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pilutiful
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 06:18:43 (permalink)
Thanks for all your feedback.
 
And I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post bitflipper. I obviously did - i'm sorry.
 
Reading your posts I'm skeptic now if it's worth it. 

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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 10:37:41 (permalink)
All good.
 
The rabbit hole just gets deeper and more interesting after taking the Red Pill.
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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tlw
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 12:44:47 (permalink)
sharke
I can imagine analog summing increasing width slightly if it's introducing small differences between the left and right channels, and I get the part about analog warmth and saturation (which could also have a small gluing effect) but I've never understood the claims about "3D depth" and separation. How exactly would analog summing increase depth?


Presumably by introducing differences between right and left that result in some frequencies being susceptible to a tiny delay sufficient to trigger the Haas effect and in effect creating a static low resonance comb filter. Which gives the sound a quality our brains regard as indicating it's further away because comb filtering in the natural environment is something associated with hearing sound that's reflected off multiple surfaces.

Also possibly by changing the eq curve in the "presence" band, either reducing or increasing 2.5KHz upwards content, with the consequent effect that our brains register the sound source as being closer or further away than it is. Which is why guitar amps that have a broad-band high-mid/treble adjust control generally label it "presence". The "gloss" function in some eqs can do a similar trick.

Applying the effect to an entire mix has less effect on apparent depth than adding it to the tracks you want to stand out more.

I've not studied this in any depth, but that's my best guess.

Whether applying this process wholesale and under someone else's control is a good idea is something I habe doubts about.

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tlw
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 12:58:25 (permalink)
On looking at the website again, I noticed that they give no address details, no phone number, no indication of who they are or where they are other than saying they're French. No way to contact them at all other than a web form.

Rule one of internet commerce is never trust a website that doesn't tell you who they are and provide their address and other details that indicate the company exists outside someone's imagination. Advertising standards in the EU require companies to provide those details and consumer protection agencies advise people not to do business with a website that doesn't provide them.

If they are EU based, they should also give either their VAT registration number or state they are VAT exempt (usually because their turnover is too low to require registration). They also charge in US Dollars, with no pricing in Euros, Sterling or other currencies a European based on-line business is likely to encounter. Which means both the company and Europeans purchasing their services will face currency conversion charges, which is insane when paying them in Euros would avoid that cost to themselves and their customers.

I'd also be much happier if they had photos of their entire setup, not just cut and paste images of rack unit front panels.

A scam? Don't know. But giving them the benefit of the doubt, based on their website I'd say that irrespective of what gear they have and their abilitybto use it, they are an extremely amateurish business at best.

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pilutiful
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 13:25:40 (permalink)
tlw
On looking at the website again, I noticed that they give no address details, no phone number, no indication of who they are or where they are other than saying they're French. No way to contact them at all other than a web form.

Rule one of internet commerce is never trust a website that doesn't tell you who they are and provide their address and other details that indicate the company exists outside someone's imagination. Advertising standards in the EU require companies to provide those details and consumer protection agencies advise people not to do business with a website that doesn't provide them.

If they are EU based, they should also give either their VAT registration number or state they are VAT exempt (usually because their turnover is too low to require registration). They also charge in US Dollars, with no pricing in Euros, Sterling or other currencies a European based on-line business is likely to encounter. Which means both the company and Europeans purchasing their services will face currency conversion charges, which is insane when paying them in Euros would avoid that cost to themselves and their customers.

I'd also be much happier if they had photos of their entire setup, not just cut and paste images of rack unit front panels.

A scam? Don't know. But giving them the benefit of the doubt, based on their website I'd say that irrespective of what gear they have and their abilitybto use it, they are an extremely amateurish business at best.



I found the site from their gearslutz "introduction" post, which they wrote over a year ago:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/product-alerts-older-than-2-months/1014860-summing-station-born-remote-32-track-analog-summing-service.html
 
I would expect angry customer feedback if they were a scam, or people writing warning about them on other sites f.ex. which I also couldn't find. But I also couldn't find positive/any feedback about them, which is why I wanted to hear if anyone here have experience with them.
post edited by pilutiful - 2016/06/18 16:48:15

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pilutiful
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 13:39:56 (permalink)
tlw
I'd also be much happier if they had photos of their entire setup, not just cut and paste images of rack unit front panels.



http://www.thesummingstation.com/tssupclose-2/
 
for what it's worth!

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 16:48:32 (permalink)
Here is something to think about and the interesting thing here is that this is happening in all digital world and not just happening in an analog situation.
 
I use a Yamaha digital mixer and Studio One as my DAW.  I can mix all ITB of course and do often but for some reason when I send stereo stems out digitally to the mixer which I can do of course the mix sounds a little different when I sum them digitally in the mixer.  It always seems a little wider and deeper to me.  I have never been able to put my finger on it.  I started to think I was the only one believing this.
 
Until the day I read an article in SOS about Dave O'Donnell mixing James Taylor's latest CD.  Firstly please note he mixed the entire album on a digital mixer so any notion that analog would be the only way to go here is out the window. (I would have thought that James Taylor would have been pretty keen on an all analog affair but he did not care really. Also note he has got Gadd playing drums so that says it all really!!)  Listen to it folks and tell me what you think. 
 
Dave O'Donnel said the exact same thing in this article:
 
http://www.soundonsound.c...ck-james-taylors-world
 
Here is quote from that article:
 
“Because of the way James’s schedule went, we ended up mixing everything at his and my place, on my Yamaha DM2000 desk. It has four banks of 24 channels, and 48 channels at 96k, plus some very good internal EQs and effects, like reverbs. For me it’s great to be able to work with faders, and although we went digital through the DM2000, I think it did sound better than just staying in the box. In general, going out of the box will give you a wider image, with more depth, and the Yamaha will also do that. Particularly for a project like this, going through a mixer sounds much better. I plugged analogue outboard into the Yamaha console inserts, and also connected outboard to the Pro Tools hardware inserts. Some of the hardware included my Vertigo VSC2 compressor, which I love, and the TC Electronic 4000 as my main.
 
So I guess the moral of the story here is that even summing digitally out of the box actually sounds better and I can testify to it too.  It just does.  You have to do real time bounces which can take longer etc but you would think that staying in an all digital world would give the same results ITB or on a digital mixer but for some reason they dont.

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tlw
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 17:09:55 (permalink)
But that isn't an entirely digital process. The mixer might be digital, but the processors aren't.

Nor are the preamps in the mixer.

I have no doubt at all that passing audio through analogue hardware changes the audio. Whether that change is "better" is often a matter of taste. I use analogue hardware synths and guitar stuff because I prefer the sound to digital emulations. But that doesn't mean I haven't heard lots of good-sounding tracks and bands that used emulators.

To me the question here, leaving aside the particular business that started the discussion, is whether passing audio through an analogue process you as engineer/producer have no control over is likely to be a worthwhile enough exercise to spend money on.

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drewfx1
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 17:35:54 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
you would think that staying in an all digital world would give the same results ITB or on a digital mixer but for some reason they dont.




Digital summing is literally just adding the samples together. There will generally be some low level errors, but for any reasonable number of tracks summed at 24 bits or higher they will be at such a low level as to be irrelevant.
 
So either:
1. There is incompetence on the part of the good people at Yamaha doing the programming that somehow achieves desirable results.
2. People are perceiving something that isn't there.
3. There is some sort of additional processing going on.
 
I have to doubt #1, so it's either #2 or #3. And it would seem to me that #3 should be easy to test without leaving the digital domain.
 
And note that anything you or anyone else can testify to that didn't result from careful double blind testing where every precaution was taken to ensure that the only difference present was the thing being tested is irrelevant. That isn't meant disrespectfully - it's a fundamental rule of human perception that it is simply unreliable absent appropriate controls. And unfortunately this applies to everyone, no matter who they are or what their level of ability and/or experience and/or reputation is. 

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 17:51:27 (permalink)
I agree Drew re the blind testing and have not taken this up to that level. I have only felt this was the case. I have checked in terms of any processing etc and it still happens when there is no additional processing in the digital mixer, just summing.  I agree that summing digitally should sound the same but to my ears it simply does not.  I would go so far as to say that a blind test might actually reveal it.  It might just take the listeners a little while longer to hear the differences though I would imagine.
 
The good people at Yamaha are not incompetent and I am not imagining this either. Dave O’Donnell has the exact same opinion (I am sure you respect him) so does that not bring up the concept that it is happening. I was surprised when I read that. It made me feel better and the fact I am not imagining it.
 
Anyway sorry to get off topic as the original thread is about paying to get your tracks summed analog wise. I think overall we have agreed that it may not be.

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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 19:55:18 (permalink)
I know there has been some ferocious debate over at Gearslutz over the benefits of analog summing, and forum regular Mixerman is one of its most vocal proponents. I read his book "Zen And The Art Of Mixing" and he waxes lyrical about it in there as well. I'm not experienced enough to have any kind of credible opinion on the matter, but one point he makes in the book is that not all analog summing is the same: 
 
"There's one other way to gel your mix, and that's by slamming your 2-bus with the mix. This method allows the electronics on your 2-bus to act like a limiter. If you're mixing in the box, this isn't an option. You have to have an analog 2-bus to do this. Furthermore, not all 2-buses are created equal. The 2-bus on an SSL will crumble in short order, yet you can absolutely hammer the 2-bus on most of the 80 series Neve desks to the point that the meters are pinning at all times as you work."
 
 He also recommends Slate's VCC as an alternative to those without access to an analog 2-bus. How seriously you can take a plugin endorsement from someone like Mixerman is up to you I guess. The book's an interesting read anyway. 
 
The other side of the coin was expressed recently by Graham Cochrane of The Recording Revolution fame, who wrote an controversial article called Analog Summing And Why You Shouldn't Care. I guess his point is not that analog summing is useless, or bad, but that if you don't have access to it then you shouldn't worry in the slightest because you can still get the same results. That article had Mixerman taking a swipe at him in this Gearslutz thread....
 
Anyway it's definitely a controversial subject for sure, along the lines of CD versus vinyl in the audiophile world. 
 

James
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#21
Jeff Evans
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/18 20:20:45 (permalink)
That is rubbish about the SSL being driven hard on its two buss and crumbling in short order. The SSL can produce something like +24 dBu at its output before clipping. So that is 20 dB of headroom over +4 dBu. That is NOT crumbling in short order.
 
You might push the two buss compressor in an SSL in order to get dostortion but if you let that one off though the mixer itself has massive headroom.

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#22
sharke
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/19 00:20:31 (permalink)
Well I guess it depends on what Mixerman means by "crumbling." 

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#23
drewfx1
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/19 00:29:39 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
I agree Drew re the blind testing and have not taken this up to that level. I have only felt this was the case. I have checked in terms of any processing etc and it still happens when there is no additional processing in the digital mixer, just summing.  I agree that summing digitally should sound the same but to my ears it simply does not.

 
If it doesn't sound the same and you aren't imagining it (and I'm not insinuating you are), then I'd expect there must be something more than just summing going on. Because unless the Yamaha is really noisy, well, 2 + 2 = 4 and all that. 
 

  I would go so far as to say that a blind test might actually reveal it.  It might just take the listeners a little while longer to hear the differences though I would imagine.
 
The good people at Yamaha are not incompetent and I am not imagining this either. Dave O’Donnell has the exact same opinion (I am sure you respect him)  

 
Don't take this wrong, but I don't respect anyone - or at least try not to.   You can't claim to be objective if you let the people you like and/or respect (or agree with) slide. The point is that casual listening tests don't produce reliable data regardless of who is doing the listening. 
 
It is interesting though.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#24
Jeff Evans
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/19 01:30:36 (permalink)
The Yamaha is noiseless trust me on that. There is no processing either of any form going on. The mixer that I use is also a different model to the one Dave O'Donnell used as well.
 
I do not know anything about Dave O'Donnell and have never heard about him until I read the article about James Taylor's new album.  So I am not biased in anyway towards him.  But I guess James Taylor would not have employed him if he was not good.  I just found it interesting he made the same observation as I in regards to summing stems digitally out of a DAW into a Yamaha digital mixer.  It just sounds better.  When I get time I might organise a blind test for sure.
 
What I might do is upload the two files and let you guys hear for yourselves.  It would also be good to try this with a different digital mixer as well to rule out what you are saying about the Yamaha.

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#25
drewfx1
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/19 13:43:34 (permalink)
I would say that I come from the school that not everything has to be proven (or thoroughly investigated) if we can accept that we aren't 100% sure of things and behave accordingly.
 
But, and it's a technical nuance kind of point, if the Yamaha isn't just adding the samples together and it isn't an attempt to emulate analog summing somehow and it isn't just noise/errors from calculating at too low a bit depth or bugs and you aren't imagining it or hearing something unrelated to the summing, then some other processing must be going on by definition. Because if one isn't just adding the samples together then one isn't doing "summing". The point being that there's no magical DSP cloud when it comes to summing - the only difference is that you can do various programming things that can affect the level of calculation error. But something is very wrong if audible errors are occurring from adding a few dozen 24 bit numbers together.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#26
Mixerman
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/21 14:33:31 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
That is rubbish about the SSL being driven hard on its two buss and crumbling in short order. The SSL can produce something like +24 dBu at its output before clipping. So that is 20 dB of headroom over +4 dBu. That is NOT crumbling in short order.
 
You might push the two buss compressor in an SSL in order to get dostortion but if you let that one off though the mixer itself has massive headroom.

I've mixed on nearly every console you can name, and if you push the 2-bus on an SSL E, G, J, or K, the mix will crumble. Like you need to be careful about it because the 2-bus can't handle excessive level. You can quote specs all day. All I can tell you is what happens, and it's certainly no secret. You can spank a Neve8068. You can pin those meters all days long. You can't do that on most SSLs. 

As to analog summing, yes, it makes a big difference. IF YOU HAVE THE SUMMING IN YOUR ROOM AND YOU'RE MIXING THROUGH IT. If you just have someone run some tracks through a summing mixer, that's just a waste of time and money. The benefit is in how it helps you mix. It's a process benefit, which manifests into a results benefit. But it isn't something that you just do blindly and can expect will improve your results without mixing through it. If you get more depth, width, and punch happening while you're mixing, it makes mixing easier and faster. This keeps you focused on what's important, the music. 


It's also true that I recommend the Slate VCC if you can't afford a summing box. And if you're a hobbyist, you don't need any of that stuff (although the VCC isn't all that expensive).

I don't officially endorse Slate products, although I may as well given my relationship with Steven and everyone over at his shop. But I can tell you, I don't ever recommend products for money (believe me there's no money in that!). I recommend what I use and believe in. Even with my stance on summing, I'm super clear that I think everyone should TRY IT for themselves, and I lay out a specific methodology for it. My beef with Graham's article is that he has never even tried summing (which he admitted) yet he's telling us all how superfluous it is. Please. If you haven't tried something you have no business discussing it or telling others they don't need it. I suppose his message is that all that's important is the music. Do you really need someone to tell you that you can record great music without analog summing? My advice in regards to summing is for people who get paid to mix and want to make their life easier in the process. It's not about whether artists and musicians can make music that touches others regardless of how they sum.

New book coming out. #Mixerman and the Billionheir Apparent. Google is your friend.

Enjoy, #Mixerman
 
post edited by Mixerman - 2016/06/21 15:06:29




#27
Jeff Evans
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/21 16:53:12 (permalink)
Yes that is interesting.  I have actually repaired these consoles and then after run tones through them and measured output levels and looked at the signal on a CRO for example.  In fact the SSL spec is something like output before clipping is  +26 dBu which is enormous.  It is one of the reasons why we pay so much for this level of console design.  They have massive headroom.  Have you tried this without the 2 buss compressor on though.  That does not have the same headroom as the mixer does by itself.  It could be the bottleneck.
 
But I must say I have never pushed a mix really hard in a console like that so I guess I take what you say is interesting.  Of course tones are one thing but a full mix is another.  The fact an SSL can’t go as high as the Neve before distorting may be due to other parts of the signal flow perhaps.  I have always been someone that gets a full mix producing around the nominal rms level at the output eg + 4 dBu. I am in the clean, transparent camp and not pushing the console.  It certainly can do that though if you want it to.
 
I have done lots of mixes both ways and find in the end I still end up with a very similar result.  It is nice to mix on a console because the workflow is quicker for sure.  But I don't agree it is necessarily a huge amount easier.  I find mixing ITB very easy too.
 
In reality it is all about how you move the listener emotionally at the end of the day and nothing else.  If someone is moved and they love the music they are not going to be wondering how you summed the mix believe me.  It is irrelevant.  But if analaog summing gets you there easier then I say go down that path for sure.  I don't mind analog summing because I have done tons of it too in the past and I never fail to get a great mix that way either.  But I find I can still great a great mix without it.  What is wrong, is to say that you can't great a great mix unless you do it.  Because you can.
 
What I am finding interesting though is the fact that summing stems digitally in a digital console actually sounds better to me than ITB and that one is hard to explain.  Got any ideas on that?  The Yamaha digital console I am using is doing no processing or anything yet it just sounds slightly different for some reason.  If I can I will try this on another digital mixer and see what happens.  As Drew points out there may be something going on in there I don't know about.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2016/06/22 02:58:19

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#28
Kev999
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/22 03:09:03 (permalink)
According to some engineers, e.g. Ken Scott, it’s not so much about analog summing being so good, it’s more about digital summing not sounding right. A digital recording or sample of a single instrument can sound perfectly fine, but keep adding together more and more tracks digitally and it becomes increasingly harsh and edgy.

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#29
drewfx1
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Re: Online Analog Summing services 2016/06/22 13:04:24 (permalink)
Kev999
According to some engineers, e.g. Ken Scott, it’s not so much about analog summing being so good, it’s more about digital summing not sounding right. A digital recording or sample of a single instrument can sound perfectly fine, but keep adding together more and more tracks digitally and it becomes increasingly harsh and edgy.




No. This is nonsense. Digital summing with an appropriate level of precision does not add distortion* or change frequency or phase response or anything else like that. And though I've argued that with 32 bit summing any calculation errors will never be audible, with Sonar we don't even need to have that discussion because if one turns on the 64 bit double precision engine it's simply impossible for any errors to make it to a 24 bit output.
 
Note that this does not mean analog summing can't sound better, but if it does it's because it's adding pleasing analog coloration - not because of any fault with digital.
 
 
*EDIT: with fixed point summing it is of course possible to clip, but I don't know if any currently available ITB systems still use fixed point. With floating point you can't clip when summing, but if you don't attenuate to <= 0dBFS you will clip when converting to 16 or 24 bit. But I would call clipping of this sort "user error" rather than a problem with digital summing.
 
And knowing Jeff, let's just say I find it kind of unlikely he's clipping his Yamaha.   So if there's anything going on there with the Yamaha I might guess some kind of background processing or something, but I don't really think it makes sense to speculate - if we really want to know enough to be worth the bother, we should just run some test signals through and see what (if anything) is up.
post edited by drewfx1 - 2016/06/22 13:50:55

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#30
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