Beagle
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Opto Tube Compressor?
What does an "opto tube compressor" do that a regular compressor does not?
I assume "opto tube" refers to the physical design. In modern designs, I would assume that "opto" would imply an optically coupled op amp, but I don't know what an "opto tube" is. can anyone shed some light on this?
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AT
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/06 21:26:56
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I'm no EE but an optical comp uses a light sensitive element to control the amount of compression. A larger signal stregnth coming in makes a light brighter which triggers the compression. It is slower than VCA etc. Any deeper than that and I'm lost in the math. It is just a different means to a compressed output.
;-)
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http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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Beagle
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/06 21:36:29
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so why would they be more expensive if they're slower?
what you're describing is the same thing as an optically coupled op amp, I guess it would just be the same thing only using tubes as the amplifier instead of an op amp.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/06 23:37:28
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☄ Helpful
As I understand it the salient feature in the classic designs of opto tube compressors is that that the opto element acts as a voltage divider at the input and dumps some of the energy. It works almost exactly as if you were twisting a potentiometer on an input. By doing this they continue to use the first stage of the amplifier stage in a consistent manner which is to say that the amp continuously operates in it's sweet spot and so the character of the output stays very consistent. Usually, the amp is designed to operate along it's most linear region on the response curve. This leads to descriptions like "transparent" gain reduction. Many classic opto tube compressors do exhibit "color" but not because of the amplifier used in the gain reduction stage. The color is attributed to transformers and the make up stage which may or may not be "hi-fi". Other designs like Vari Mu, feedback phase canceling, or Voltage Controlled Amplification exhibit noticeable sound characteristics when they operate. Hopefully the sonic character suits your intended use. Technologies like feedback phase canceling (think UREI 1176 or Purple MC77) or VCAs (Think DBX) are capable of much faster response times... but their sonic signature may not be appropriate for your use. Opto compressors seem very helpful when working with vocals... despite their slower response specs. With regards to pricing... the parts cost of something like a single channel DIY LA2A clone is apprx $800. With that in mind the retail price of $1600 to $3400 is right in line with the sort of mark up you pay when you purchase a $100 Behringer compressor that costs $20 to build in China. I think that's it in a nutshell. best regards, mike edit spelling
post edited by mike_mccue - 2010/07/06 23:58:56
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Beagle
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 07:57:01
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fantastic description, mike! thanks very much!
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fireberd
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 08:33:15
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I go back to the old "raysistor" or "LDR" (Light Dependent Resistor) days in electronics. I wouldn't think with modern technology that a light coupled (or isolated) device would still be in use. I haven't delved into how this particular unit works, just some thoughts from an "old time" electroncs tech.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 09:02:37
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My pleasure Beagle.
I find it helps me to think clearly by writing this stuff down every now and then.
best,
mike
Fireberd, I just noticed you're from Inverness... the lake region... I drove by last Monday... we're practically neighbors. I'm up near Tallahassee. :-) Nice to know you neighbor.
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Beagle
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 09:03:24
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I wouldn't think with modern technology that a light coupled (or isolated) device would still be in use. opto coupled op amps are very much still in use in modern designs. and optically coupled op amp provides isolation which a high resistance couple cannot match (but there are trade offs of course!) I'm an EE but I didn't finish school until the late 1990's so I didn't learn anything in school about tube technology. the older technology that you're used to working with is foriegn to me, but fascinating and obviously still very useful. the devices which brought about my question are the 2 versions of the Chameleon Labs Stereo Compressors. one of them is an OPTO TUBE compressor and the other is labelled "stereo compressor" so I assume it's FET based opamps instead. the Opto Tube compressor costs more than the FET opamp. I believe these units are neve clones?
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 09:32:13
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Beagle, The reason some compressors emphasize opto "tube" is to emphasize the fact that they use a tube... a single tube has a wider region of linear response than a single solid state transistor... and so if you are looking for a class A triode design the tube outperforms the transistor.
One can of course assemble a bank of transistors into a nifty circuit that has a very wide linear response... but that is no where near as simple as a triode that just does it by it's very nature.
Once folks get used to the sound of a simple triode... it's hard to compare a bank of transistors to it... they just sound a bit different.
There are several opto compressors on the market that use solid state.
Mr. Neve is not known to be a pioneer in compressor circuits... so I don't know a whole bunch about his designs... but I do know the compressor circuits he made/makes are thought to have great sound. I don't think he ever used an opto circuit in the prime of his design years... he may have while he was younger but his famous circuits that were part of his consoles are feedback canceling IIRC.
I've read that the folks at Chameleon Labs are great at what they do... I'll bet a phone call will fill your head with knowledge about their particular designs.
all the best,
mike
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Beagle
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 09:50:06
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Mike - yes, I should clarify that I have learned a little about tube technology specifically since working with recording and I do understand that a tube amp (a true tube amp, not a starved plate design) has a much wider linear response as well as colors the sound differently than solid state does. I do understand the basics of tube technology, just not extensively. it's the OPTO part that I didn't understand with respect to tube amplification and compression.
thanks again.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 09:57:42
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I figured you probably knew... I was just trying to place it the context of why the marketers emphasize the "tube" in the description.
For example; The Manley ELOP opto tube compressor and the Langevin ELOP are presumably very similar topologies... the solid state Langevin is more affordable.
I think that you know way more about electronics than I... I just have a fascination for why some things sound different and that has led me to learn enough tech to keep track of some aspects of it.
:-)
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skullsession
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 10:55:06
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mike_mccue
For example; The Manley ELOP opto tube compressor and the Langevin ELOP are presumably very similar topologies... the solid state Langevin is more affordable.
:-)
Perhaps...but a "friend" of mine had a pretty rough time with Eva Manley a while back, over the build quality of a stereo compressor that showed up 1/2 D.O.A.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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Beagle
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 11:08:30
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fireberd
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 12:24:23
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Mike, yes we are relatively close.
Optical Isolation as I noted has been around for a while. In the late 60's I worked at the NASA Apollo Tracking Station on Ascension Island and later at Goddard Space Flight Center, for Bendix Field Engineering. The PCM Telemetry "decomutators" (basically programmable time division DE-Multiplexers) had syncronizers on the front end that had the Raysistors, to isolate the data bit stream from the rest of the system. With the optical front end there was no direct physical connection.
I assume the opto tube basically does the same thing with the optics.
Edwards "light beam" and later Goodrich Electronics,which makes volume pedals and some other Pedal Steel Guitar products, had a volume pedal in the 70's that used an optical coupling. It wasn't very good as it tended to "color' (change the tone) of the signal.
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 12:44:09
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FWIW, In a *typical* opto compressor there is no tube in the actual opto circuit. Perhaps back before 1962 there was... but by the time (circa 1964-65) the definitive example of an audio circuit using a opto cell was deigned... the LA2A... the T4B module it was designed around was solid state. A tube amp hack such as myself thinks of the T4 as a module... all the tubes in a LA2A circuit are used elsewhere... and so they can also be replaced with solid state. An example is the LA3A. here's a LA2A schematic:  I remember the excitement of the space race... it must have been thrilling to have taken part in it. I have several friends who worked for Bendix back in that era... I was just a kid... but I still have my Miami Hearald with the photo of Mr Armstrong standing on the surface on the front cover. Thanks for taking part!!! best regards, mike
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Beagle
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 13:02:05
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wow - I too am impressed with the work you did at that time! I was a kid during the space race also (yes, even tho I finished EE school only 11 years ago!). I was 6 when the historic Apollo 11 happened!
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fireberd
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 14:52:46
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The Ascension Island site was the backup to the NASA site in Spain (Spain had an 85 ft dish and Ascension Island had a 30 ft dish) and we tracked the "Eagle" all the way down to the moon landing. I was on duty and as I worked in PCM Telemetry we broke out the Astronaut's EKG and Respiration Rates out of the downlink Telemetry and put them on an Ink chart recorder. I don't remember the readings but we were told their EKG and Respiration rate going down to the moon were fairly normal, as they were busy landing and had done it so many times in simulators that it was sort of automatic. However, when they got on the moon and realized that they were there (and "The Eagle has landed") their biomed data peaked for a short period and then went back to normal rates.
I also got into the "middle" of Apollo 13. I was working at Goddard Space Flight Center (Greenbelt MD) as a Telemetry Operations Engineer and as the lead PCM Telemetry Decommutator Programmer. I spent a lot of hours at the Goddard Network Operations Center developing special patches for the Telemetry Decommutators to break out data for Houston so it could be displayed at the tracking stations and the tech's there could monitor those parameters and notify Houston. At the time the "high speed' data link from the Tracking Stations to Houston was 4.8K (4800 BPS) and that was not enough bandwidth to send all the downlink telemtery, Unified S-Band ranging data, etc back to Houston in realtime. If Houston wanted extra parameters to be monitored at the sites then I would have to issue a patch to the program to do that.
Enough of my NASA past.
Looking at that circuit, it appears that is a LDR device (Light Dependent Resistor).
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skullsession
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 21:07:16
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Screw compressors...
BUILD ME A ROCKET SHIP!
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/07 21:34:33
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:-)
I have a "friend" who happens to live in Houston... I wonder if he lives near the rocket factory?
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fireberd
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/08 06:23:39
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I just took a closer look at that schematic. I notice the date on the drawing is 6 Aug 68! That would also put it in the timeframe with the "Light Dependent Resistors". I notice they are also using an NE51 lamp as a voltage regulator, another "old technology" trick. I recently repaired an old ADA power amp and the problem with that was the NE51 lamp in the power supply that was used in the "starter" circuit.
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
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skullsession
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/08 08:10:50
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mike_mccue
:-)
I have a "friend" who happens to live in Houston... I wonder if he lives near the rocket factory?
Ehh...about 45 min away - by car. Much less by rocket, I'm sure. But they won't build me one either.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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wst3
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/08 13:27:58
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one quick addition to all the info already shared...
A big part of the sound of an LDR compressor is the rather non-linear decay curve. The trick can be done with almost any variable gain element, but LDRs do it without any trickery<G>!
Basically, the first N dB of release will take X, and the next N dB will take some number greater than X. And so on. Or, looking at it slightly differently, over the first X mSec you'll get N dB of release, and then it'll take X+Y mSec to get the next N dB.
Makes sense?
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/08 13:34:58
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Yes, If anyone needs to see an illustrative example you open up Sonnitus FX and choose the LA2A preset... you get to see the S curve.
Thanks for chiming in Bill, I always hope you'll stop in and clarify.
best,
mike
BTW, some may be curious to learn that most black and silver face Fender guitar amps used a LDR on the so called "Tremolo" or "Vibrato" circuits.
When the LDR on my Deluxe Reverb wore out I rebuilt the circuit with an older solution from the late fifties tweed Fenders. It's richer, smoother, and goo-eee-er than the LDR version.
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fireberd
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/08 17:30:22
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I just finished working on a 65 model Pro Reverb. It was distorting and it turned out to be a 25uf 25V electrolytic in the Reverb driver tube circuit. All the parts were original, but now it has two new 25uf caps in place of the old Mallory dual 25uf cap.
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/08 18:14:35
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Nice!!! Was the Mallory cap one of the "cans"? There are some remakes of that design available on the vintage style parts sites should you have any interest in cosmetic matching. Antique Electronics at www.tubesandmore.com stocks them if you want to see if they have a suitable size. best, mike
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fireberd
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/09 06:44:09
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It was one of the dual caps on the main component mounting (the garbarge with the eyelets) and I suspect there was an internal intermittent short with the other half of the cap as this type is wrapped together and over the years it can corrupt.
Eventually all those old Electrolytics will have to be replaced. The only problem with "recapping" is that it will change the sound of the amp. When Fender built those the tolerance on components such as caps could be very high (plus or minus 50% or more) compared to good grade components today with much tighter specs. Thus putting in modern components, especially caps can have a dramatic effect on the sound. There are people that specialize in "modding" or "upgrading" old Fender amps by recapping, etc with the "audiophile" components but the old amps really lose their character.
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/09 07:07:15
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I agree about the caps and potential for changing the sound... I think it also makes a big difference where and what the cap is doing. That said, even a fresh cap on a cathode can change gain structure... even if it's not obvious that it has changed tone, the change in gain will effect the overall tonality.
I don't think I'm familiar with the form factor you just described. Most of my repair experience is with Silverface era Fenders. Perhaps that type of cap was phased out sometime after your '65 was built?
Thanks for the explanation.
best regards,
mike
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fireberd
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/09 08:11:47
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The chassis was an AA165 model. It belongs to our lead guitar player. He is an amp and guitar (mostly Fender) collector and has three Pro Reverb's (several Twins, etc ) but this one (and the speakers in the amp) is his favorite and what he takes on jobs.
The cap that went bad was on the cathode of the 12AT7 reverb "driver" tube.
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/09 09:00:08
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Yes, I see it on the layout... I was ignorant of the dual wrapped axial form factor. The silver face amps I have encountered simply use two separate caps.
I like learning... thanks for sharing.
I'm guessing there was a JBL D in that Pro? Just a wild guess based on my personal interest and preference for their sound.
all the best,
mike
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fireberd
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Re:Opto Tube Compressor?
2010/07/09 09:48:20
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They are not JBL's. I don't remember what brand they are but they are white color. They are not Jensen's or Emminence. Here is something you might like. I bought a Fender FM100H head and had a speaker cabinet with a 12" Emminence "Tonkerlite" speaker. The head was longer than the speaker cabinet so I decided to build a "Fender" cabinet and mount the head and speaker. Here is my "creation" Physically it's about the same size as a Twin Reverb cabinet/ 
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
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