Orchestration newb eyeing 1st VSL library but worried re learning curve/use in SonarX3

Hi all, I am a new student of midi orchestration (I am using a textbook by Paul Gilreath) and after a lot of shopping around, am thinking about getting the Vienna Standard Edition I Plus bundle to use as my basic orchestra. It is the best-sounding, dry-recorded library which covers all the important articulations for the major solo instruments I've heard. Also, now is a really good time to buy because they are on sale.
 
(In an earlier post I had asked about the new UVI Orchestral Suite, but I now think Vienna is just far superior.)

But I hesitate, even at these very good prices, because I worry about ... drowning in the complexity of yet (sigh) another powerful new (to me) product (I've never used anything from VSL, I've mainly used Kontakt), and about whether it "behaves" well in Sonar (I have Sonar X3 Producer, 16 GB of RAM).

How easy is it to get to grips with the free Vienna Instrument and Ensemble software? I already have so very much to learn about midi orchestration -- its is really daunting for a beginner-- I just don't want any more software, however brilliant, which will take me weeks or months of learning before I can even start using it with any minimal skill. (By the way, I plan to start modestly, trying to write short things for small ensembles before trying anything "epic" with a full virtual symphony. So I maybe don't need to know about every advanced feature).
 
So...are these two software packages  reasonably straightforward to use, or is it a large time investment? I am willing to work to learn something useful, but it is a matter of degree and time, as I have a busy day job and an aging brain.

Just as importantly, do these programs work well in Sonar? I recall seeing somewhere that someone said there were midi routing problem, but can't remember where I saw it.) Anyway, what are your impressions?


I am grateful for any advice.

Forum member Konrad is a big VSL user. I'm sure he will be around soon to help you.

It's true, Cakewalk only implemented VST3 in Sonar X3 and with the current release has upped the ante by extending the VST3 functions available to a compliant plugin.

Here's a link to a comparison table of what's in each current version.
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR
Click the link at the bottom of the page to compare the versions.

i use ewql as well as vsl and vienna is by far a superior product in terms of software and samples. I'll chime in more in the morrow when I'm at a proper keyboard.

Gentlemen, 
 
Thanks a lot for your help here.
 
Here is a follow-up question -- if I stick with X3e, what, with regard to VTT3 or anything else relevant to VSL -- would I be missing? I ask as I will not be upgrading to Platinum any time soon, if ever (long story, let's not get sidetracked by it; please just accept it as a hard constraint).  

EWSO was a strong contender here. I'd read a fair bit about it. Was given some pause by comments regarding Play and customer service (check out Amazon as one of many sources of grumbling), but for me the nail in the coffin is that they are recorded wet. I like more intimate sounds as opposed to big cinematic washes in large spaces, so the ability to apply my own verb to dry samples is key. Thanks for the advice though.
 
Everyone here is very helpful, thanks again. The vibe on this forum is about as good as it gets. I apologise for not contributing much, it's only because I don't know nuthin'  .... yet, anyway. 

FYI: Platinum is based on X3e with some new features (especially in MIDI) and IIRC some VST3 improvements (read: fixes).

I have minimal mileage with X3e and VSL, but I ran into no problems. I did upgrade to Platinum, and that too is working well with Vienna Instrument or Ensemble, right now I'm playing with VEPro, and again it's working pretty well.
 
It has been a while since I used Play - last time was when that had that Ghostwriter contest. That was the first version of Play on Windows that worked at all for me. The EW libraries do sound good, but I just don't need the headache of a new sample playback engine right now. In fact adding the VSL engine was a bit of a hurdle<G>.
 
The dry nature of the VSL instruments works for me, lots of control and flexibility, and they layer beautifully with the Cinesamples CineBrass and CineWinds, and 8Dio Adagietto and Agitato, and Chris Hein Horns. These are my core instruments in my template right now, and I do not feel like I am missing anything - most of the time.
 
If I had more confidence in the Play engine I'd probably add the Hollowood Strings, Brass and Winds for yet another take. I do have the original (GigaStudio) Quantum Leap Brass, and still use them from time to time.

I don't think there is much to worry about with VSL. There probably isn't a reason to worry about EW either, but they get just enough bad press for me to put that off  for a bit longer.

I'm a spitfire dude so can't directly respond but I will say that for anyone doing orchestrations sonar's track templates are indispensable... It is absolutely the best time-saver for quickly loading various packages you design and like to use.

In this regard I also think if you are serious enough to get vsl then upgrading to platinum is a must. Just the mix recall function alone is worth it and required for efficient production and learning. All of the subtle mixing required in orchestrating... Recalling mixes instantly is a godsend. Skip the coffee and beer's for a bit and upgrade. You own it to yourself

lingyai
EWSO was a strong contender here. I'd read a fair bit about it. Was given some pause by comments regarding Play and customer service (check out Amazon as one of many sources of grumbling), but for me the nail in the coffin is that they are recorded wet. I like more intimate sounds as opposed to big cinematic washes in large spaces, so the ability to apply my own verb to dry samples is key. Thanks for the advice though.
 
Everyone here is very helpful, thanks again. The vibe on this forum is about as good as it gets. I apologise for not contributing much, it's only because I don't know nuthin'  .... yet, anyway. 

I did a lot of research before going down the EWSO / EWQL road and had also read bad reviews re play and other issues. I can categorically state that with my set up I have not had one single problem with the play engine with either X3e or SPlat and find it fantastic (very easy to use, intuitive and rock solid as far as stability goes). I don't know where you get that samples are recorded wet, they are not and in fact, depending on the version, you get multiple mic positions which are superb, You can choose to add spaces convolution reverb or not within play with adjustable parameters (and as a side note I find it better not to use each instances of play reverb but to have one overall reverb that every instrument goes through as it is far more natural) I have also found EW support to be very professional and on the ball - this is just my personal experience and have nothing to gain by stating any of this..
 
+1 Michael Diemer - EW frequently has great sales but IMO you cant go past the latest offering which is composer cloud, check it out before buying anything.
 
Best of luck whichever way you go.

PhilP
I don't know where you get that samples are recorded wet, they are not and in fact, depending on the version, you get multiple mic positions which are superb, You can choose to add reverb or not within play.
 
^this
 
As far as the samples used to sell the library, I assume all the manufactures 'wet' the samples.
 
The play engine has worked fine for me for ten years or so.
 

 

lingyai
Re wetness:
 
These google results (search term: "ewso wet," then drilling down into gearslutz)
 
https://www.google.co.uk/...site:www.gearslutz.com
 
has a number of comments about the wet reverb, from as recently as last year. Also, for what it's worth, I've never heard a dry demo.  Are you saying that you can get completely dry sounds? I'm looking for bone-dry, on a par with VSL.

They are recorded in the EW room and the various mike positions give that perspective. Yes the conductors position mike is going to be slightly "wet" in comparison to the close mike. You mix those different mike positions to get the desired result you want. The close mike to my ears is pretty darn dry. Having said that I don't know the VSL libraries that well so can't really comment as to how they compare.
 
Edit: If your happy that VSL is going to give you the exact sound you want then it makes to go down that path. I would still recommend checking out composer cloud for best bang for your buck (even as an additional option). FWIW I always need to add reverb even when using the distant surround mic
 
Best of luck.
 
Phil

Wait so only Platinum Has the further developed VST3 spec? not professional?

I don't know about the Hollywood Orchestra but EWQL Symphony Orchestra was recorded in a large hall and you cannot get a totally dry sound.  The gold version only comes with the room mics so IMO you must get EWQLSO Platinum because you really need the close mics.  Even with the close mics, however, it has the natural reverb of the hall.