Lydian Audio
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Order of signal path
So I have seen one other post about signal path, but it didn't quite have the answer I was looking for. Thought maybe a new post could help me and some others.
It seems that the general consensus is to have EQ before compression on individual tracks along with an optional EQ after compression. Got it. I'll come back to the 2nd EQ...
So when it comes to Console emulators, tube saturation, and virtual tape, where do these go?
My thought, and correct me if I'm wrong or it doesn't make sense, is the following: (with the signal reading top to bottom in the prochannel)
1. Console Emulator (my mind says it should come into the console first)
2. Tube Saturator
3. EQ
4. Compressor
5. Virtual Tape
6. Then to the FX bin
Aside from this theory being correct on the signal path, my question about the 2nd EQ is where does it go and how do you get it after the compressor yet before the VT if this is the right order? To my knowledge I have tried to place a second eq in the pro channel and it will not let you.
Appreciate any help and explanation!
Thanks.
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Splat 
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/13 21:58:10
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mettelus
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/14 00:45:53
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I think your question is more about effect chain order (and seems focused on the prochannel)? Before saying anything, realize there is no set order... much is based on taste and what you want to hear. This is the reason why many multi-effect processors allow you to reorder the effects as you choose (including the prochannel). If there was a set order, you wouldn't be able to change them  Typically, a signal goes through a path of pre-gain (noise gates, compressors, signal mods, EQs, etc.), gain (distortions, saturation, overdrives, etc.), and post-gain (chorus/phase/flange, etc. with reverbs and delays being last). Even placement of the EQ is taste in many ways (before or after compression). The only thing that sticks out to me is that I would put saturation after the compressor. Reason is that saturation is based on the input signal level, and an uncompressed signal may not sound "fluid." I have rarely used Console Emulator (so cannot speak to it well at all), and view it as a "post-gain effect," so I personally would be prone to put that before the tape simulator (also a "post-gain effect" in my mind). A big part of your question is personal taste and how it sounds to you, so experimenting with the order and turning them on/off will allow you to see how dynamically they affect the signal with their current placement. As far as "other EQs," you can add them to the track (FX bin and PC), and then the output bus (FX bin and PC, if used), and master bus (FX bin and PC).
post edited by mettelus - 2013/12/14 01:49:03
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Lydian Audio
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/14 18:32:26
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Well I think both of your replies are correct. I do realize much is personal taste. Though I am thinking there must be some rule of thumb for the aforementioned plugins of where they'd be placed and why.
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pdarg
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/14 21:12:52
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There was a big thread sometime earlier which asserted that the console emulator should always be last in the ProChannel chain.
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Lydian Audio
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/14 22:57:30
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I think I found the answer! That being said its odd that the console is always automatically added to the end.
You will typically want to insert the Console Emulator module as the first module, and make sure ProChannel has Post FX Bin disabled. However, you can also experiment with placing the Console Emulator module at the end and enable Post FX Bin, so all your effects and processed sound are affected."
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mettelus
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/14 23:00:06
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Cakewalk has a brief description to the Console Emulator here, with suggestions at the bottom. A brief answer to your question (and is just my perspective) is this: Big picture, you want to only be playing with the signal that you want to hear, so EQ first is often used to trim/adjust that signal first. Craig Anderton had a nice post a few weeks ago on low passing guitar amp sims ~5KHz because the "fake harmonics" above that getting into the rest of the signal path can sound terrible (i.e. they do not "belong" yet are getting amplified and processed). Compression is often next, as you take this signal you want, and "level" it to taste so that effects apply "equally" (more or less) across its dB variation. Saturation/Overdrive/Distortion is often next, since these create "clipping" and need a fairly high signal in to achieve this. If a signal is not compressed, only portions above a certain dB may see the distortion, while the rest doesn't. Likewise... if EQ was not used prior to this, you can potentially "overdrive" a part of the signal you did not want in the first place, so "getting rid of it" become 10 times harder (and you can attenuate the signal you want to keep doing this as well). To me, both the console emulator and tape sim introduce "noise"... and adding a little for feel is fine, but if introduced before compression/saturation, you have now taken "noise" and "amplified" it twice. Of course, this depends a lot on how much you have introduced as well. To me, it is far more "controllable" at the end of the signal path to do so. Please keep in mind this is simply my personal preference, and even based on the final sound you want, these can be varied, but if you google "effect chaining" or such, you can find a lot of sites that go into much deeper explanations for you.
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scook
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/14 23:07:25
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AT
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/14 23:12:31
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Don't use anything you don't have a reason to. If you need 16 effects piled onto your track, it might be better to retrack it.
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Lydian Audio
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/16 08:38:20
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mettelus
Cakewalk has a brief description to the Console Emulator , with suggestions at the bottom.
A brief answer to your question (and is just my perspective) is this:
Big picture, you want to only be playing with the signal that you want to hear, so EQ first is often used to trim/adjust that signal first. Craig Anderton had a nice post a few weeks ago on low passing guitar amp sims ~5KHz because the "fake harmonics" above that getting into the rest of the signal path can sound terrible (i.e. they do not "belong" yet are getting amplified and processed).
Compression is often next, as you take this signal you want, and "level" it to taste so that effects apply "equally" (more or less) across its dB variation.
Saturation/Overdrive/Distortion is often next, since these create "clipping" and need a fairly high signal in to achieve this. If a signal is not compressed, only portions above a certain dB may see the distortion, while the rest doesn't. Likewise... if EQ was not used prior to this, you can potentially "overdrive" a part of the signal you did not want in the first place, so "getting rid of it" become 10 times harder (and you can attenuate the signal you want to keep doing this as well).
To me, both the console emulator and tape sim introduce "noise"... and adding a little for feel is fine, but if introduced before compression/saturation, you have now taken "noise" and "amplified" it twice. Of course, this depends a lot on how much you have introduced as well. To me, it is far more "controllable" at the end of the signal path to do so.
Please keep in mind this is simply my personal preference, and even based on the final sound you want, these can be varied, but if you google "effect chaining" or such, you can find a lot of sites that go into much deeper explanations for you.
Well I gotta say, you make perfect sense and its something I should definitely experiment with. If its one thing I dislike about the digital world is it seems to be very wishy washy. There is no clear cut "this is how you do it" scenario. I guess maybe analog had some form of this too. That being said. I love what we are able to do now as opposed to what I could do back in the late 80s early 90s with my 4-track recorder. ;) Thanks for the input, much appreciated!!
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dubdisciple
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/16 11:44:14
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For me, and this is highly personal, i can't imagine putting anything before initial EQ. It would seem pointless imo to place effects on a signal that I felt needed correction. The only times I make exceptions is for a signal that needs to be gated,if I am working with a noisy sound source that needs noise reduction, if I am using pre-recorded material like third party loops or other premastered pre-mastered material or a vsti that allows me to shape the sound before entering the channel
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/16 12:14:50
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OP:"It seems that the general consensus is to have EQ before compression on individual tracks along with an optional EQ after compression. Got it. I'll come back to the 2nd EQ..."
I think the consensus is more like what AT wrote a few posts up. Don't add anything (especially on tracks) unless it's necessary. Your wording makes it sound as if you thought it's like "normal way" to put EQ and compression (+one more EQ) on every track. It sure isn't.
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Lydian Audio
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/16 14:45:12
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Kalle Rantaaho
OP:"It seems that the general consensus is to have EQ before compression on individual tracks along with an optional EQ after compression. Got it. I'll come back to the 2nd EQ..."
I think the consensus is more like what AT wrote a few posts up. Don't add anything (especially on tracks) unless it's necessary. Your wording makes it sound as if you thought it's like "normal way" to put EQ and compression (+one more EQ) on every track. It sure isn't.
This info is just what I have gathered from looking around and asking questions. Not necessarily my personal opinion. Not adding anything is great in theory, but I am skeptical that you'd get the best(subjective) results. True...there may be cases where nothing is needed on a particular track, however that will only work so far. At some point an eq or compressor will be required. This whole discussion really stemmed from wanting to make templates for different projects. (ie. Mixing template, tracking template, mastering template, etc.) Having eq+compression+eq doesn't mean it would be used on every track. It might preloaded ready for use.
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mettelus
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/16 14:52:47
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Lydian Audio
If its one thing I dislike about the digital world is it seems to be very wishy washy. There is no clear cut "this is how you do it" scenario.
Nah... you can actually do more, so people feel the "need" to do more (just because they can sometimes). Simplicity is elegant... and many "best known" songs have that element. The digital age introduced a few wonderful things... For audio, if you get the cleanest signal, you can save this and always come back to it years later... decide the processing "doesn't fit," alter it to a completely new sound "instantaneously," and off you go. For MIDI, the data is simply key information, so can "plug and play" to different synths and tailor the audio output in the same way. Digital allows you to always go back and "change your mind" and those changes do not require re-recording (or figuring how to make the tape not squeal because it has been shelved for years). AT said it most succinctly... resist (violently at times) the urge to pile effects onto anything... if you feel that need, the base signal might simply need to be redone.
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Lydian Audio
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/16 15:06:03
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mettelus
Lydian Audio
If its one thing I dislike about the digital world is it seems to be very wishy washy. There is no clear cut "this is how you do it" scenario.
Nah... you can actually do more, so people feel the "need" to do more (just because they can sometimes). Simplicity is elegant... and many "best known" songs have that element.
The digital age introduced a few wonderful things... For audio, if you get the cleanest signal, you can save this and always come back to it years later... decide the processing "doesn't fit," alter it to a completely new sound "instantaneously," and off you go. For MIDI, the data is simply key information, so can "plug and play" to different synths and tailor the audio output in the same way. Digital allows you to always go back and "change your mind" and those changes do not require re-recording (or figuring how to make the tape not squeal because it has been shelved for years).
AT said it most succinctly... resist (violently at times) the urge to pile effects onto anything... if you feel that need, the base signal might simply need to be redone.
Yeah traditionally I have been brought up in the purists hi end loudspeaker world where the less you have the better. That's why I say its not about using everything that is in the chain, but they are there ready to go when called upon. Unlike the analog world if its in the chain its changing the sound. The digital world gives you the option of having them loaded up, but not active. I've watched a couple a CLA interviews and he speaks of having eq and compression on every track. Not sure he means they are being used or again just there if he needs them.
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mettelus
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Re: Order of signal path
2013/12/16 15:12:13
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+1, you are on the money!  I just saw your templates post... just keep in mind you can save ProChannel settings (hover over the PC name and will see save/load icons), and FX chains too... you do not need to set those up at a "global level." Project templates, on the other hand, for tracks and bus routings I would suggest "global."
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