Other channels distort after adding guitar effects

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guyshomenet
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2016/01/02 20:07:04 (permalink)

Other channels distort after adding guitar effects

Finally got latency down to the point where I can record.
 
So I added a clean lead guitar track ... so far, so good.
 
But when I add effects (using either Pevey Revalver or some amp sim bundled in with Sonar Producer) the other channels become distorted.
 
At first I thought it might be I was over stressing the PC, but both CPU and memory are well below thresholds (CPU ranging 10-25% and still 25% of RAM to spare).
 
So what would cause effects on channel 8 distort channels 1-7?

Sonar Professional,
Windows 10 64-bit,
i5 650 @ 3.2GHz, 8GB DDR3 @ 1333MHz, Intel HD Graphics,
Behringer U-PHORIA UMC404HD using ASIO driver
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    cparmerlee
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/02 21:06:05 (permalink)
    guyshomenet
    At first I thought it might be I was over stressing the PC, but both CPU and memory are well below thresholds (CPU ranging 10-25% ...



    I haven't done the setup you are trying (with the amp simulations), but the CPU usage seems really high.  Do you have a bunch of other tracks with lots of effects?  You may have to freeze some of those tracks.

    DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
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    #2
    ampfixer
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/02 21:20:00 (permalink)
    Are all the channels feeding into a buss that is overloading? Your description doesn't say if you are observing clipping on the meters or hearing it on playback.

    Regards, John 
     I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
    WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig,  Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6 
    #3
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 01:41:28 (permalink)
    Which interface are you using and with which driver?
    #4
    Anderton
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 09:38:24 (permalink)
    Amp sims use a lot of CPU. You mentioned getting the latency down to where you can record...it may be that an amp sim tips things over the edge. If you increase the latency and the distortion goes away, you'll know the cause.
     
    Check out Friday's Tip of the Week for Week 35 for a potential way to improve latency performance.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #5
    jpetersen
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 10:11:46 (permalink)
    Craig, in your Week 35 tip you have a red box around the Realtek driver (which is shown as disabled) but also the AMD HD audio device, which is NOT disabled in your screenshot.
     
    If I look in the same place on my DAW, I also have a Realtek (which I now have disabled, same as yours), and similarly a "Intel(R) Display-Audio".
    Are these also supposed to be disabled? (I ask, because your equivalent driver is NOT shown disabled.)
    #6
    guyshomenet
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 11:20:49 (permalink)
    So many good questions and insights. Let me try to address them in one pass:
     
    CPU: The CPU load is low, less than 25%.
     
    BYPASS: When I bypass the FX bin for just the lead guitar, the other instruments regain their clean sound.
     
    CHANNEL OVERLOAD: I checked and I was over driving the mains a little, but when I backed that down the other instruments sounded as if they were being fed through a distortion pedal. 
     
    DRIVERS: Using ASIO and I did up the latency to see if this helped, but it didn't.
     
    What makes this so odd to me is that before I worked to get latency down, I would use the same FX tools and never had this problem.
    #7
    cparmerlee
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 12:05:41 (permalink)
    guyshomenet
    CPU: The CPU load is low, less than 25%.

    That isn't necessarily low.  If you have a quad core machine or maybe a dual core with hyperthrreading, that may mean that one of the cores is maxing out.

    DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
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    #8
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 12:19:22 (permalink)
    Are you using the supplied drivers or a generic ASIO4ALL one? Are they updated? Which interface are you using?
    #9
    guyshomenet
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 13:12:37 (permalink)
    Again, many thanks to all. I may have this narrowed down a bit more.
     
    CPU: Actually, my CPU was higher than I thought. Using Windows Task Manager, it was more into the 50-60% range.
     
    MULTI-CPU: One of the tips I read for reducing latency was to disable the Multiprocessing Engine (which is counterintuitive). I reenabled it, though doing so had only a slightly positive effect.
     
    ASIO: Using the ASIO driver that Lexington provides for the Omega interface. I have not tried ASIO4ALL (any thoughts about its viability over Lexignton's).
     
    AMP: While experimenting, I clicked the power switch icon on just the amp in the TH2 Producer stack and all the other tracks cleaned-up 90%. Adding a distortion pedal did not make things worse. I get similar results when bypassing the amp in the Pevey Revalver stack. So it appears the amp modeling is the primary suspect, though it is unclear to why. The CPU load doesn't change much with them on or off. Are they inducing some degree of latency that causes the equivalent of clipping on the other channels? Is exporting audio (preliminary mix down) a good test for this?
    #10
    Anderton
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 14:04:40 (permalink)
    jpetersen
    Craig, in your Week 35 tip you have a red box around the Realtek driver (which is shown as disabled) but also the AMD HD audio device, which is NOT disabled in your screenshot.

     
    The driver is being disabled in the screenshot, i.e., it's not disabled but the menu to disable is has been chosen and the cursor is pointing at "disable."
     
    Also note that the two-step nature of this process that involves both System Devices and Sound, Video, and Game Controllers. It is not always necessary to do the enabling/disabling in System Devices but the described procedure insures that the unwanted driver won't turn back on.
     
    If I look in the same place on my DAW, I also have a Realtek (which I now have disabled, same as yours), and similarly a "Intel(R) Display-Audio".
    Are these also supposed to be disabled? (I ask, because your equivalent driver is NOT shown disabled.)



    I would suggest disabling it temporarily and see if it makes an improvement. If it's some kind of system thing that causes a problem, re-booting should restore.
     
    If it does make an improvement, re-visit the procedure and make sure you've followed all the steps. When you reach the point where you have the option to disable "Intel Display Audio," disable it.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #11
    Anderton
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 14:15:55 (permalink)
    guyshomenet
    ASIO: Using the ASIO driver that Lexington provides for the Omega interface.



    You do mean Lexicon (version 2.7) not Lexington, right? Lexington does not provide any drivers.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #12
    jpetersen
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 14:46:43 (permalink)
    @Craig Anderton: Thank you.
    #13
    guyshomenet
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 15:35:56 (permalink)
    Yes, sorry ... Lexicon (brain fart on my part). ASIO drive 2.7.0.
    #14
    ampfixer
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 17:10:07 (permalink)
    I would try the WDM driver mode. I tried 2 Lexicon interfaces and never could get the ASIO drivers to work. Both of them went back to the store. I think the drivers were poorly written. Hope you have better luck.

    Regards, John 
     I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
    WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig,  Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6 
    #15
    guyshomenet
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 18:34:48 (permalink)
    Additional diagnostics:
     
    I cut to MP3 exports, one with the amp simulator and one with the distortion pedal (see notes above). The same degree of cross-channel distortion was present in the MP3 files.
     
    Perhaps there is something I don't understand about Sonar, but I would think that rendering the MP3 files would not have real-time, latency dependent issues. Since the induced cross channel distortion occurs in real-time (output over the Lexicon) and in the MP3 file, I think something else is afoot.
    #16
    orangesporanges
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/03 23:20:40 (permalink)
    Set the guitar track input to "none"after recording.See if it goes away and report back.

    Sonar Platinum, Windows 10 64bit, 3.4ghz i7CPU,  16gigs RAM, 1x 1TB SSD system drive 1 x 1TB HDD ( audio only)
    #17
    ChristopherM
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/04 06:17:46 (permalink)
    You don't describe the type of distortion, but I wonder whether this is connected with your OS's Power Options. I find that Sonar glitches very easily if any degree of Processor Power Management is engaged. Go to Control Panel - Power Options and ensure that you are using a High Performance option. If you want to go under the hood look for Minimum Processor State and make sure it's set to 100%.
    #18
    Anderton
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/04 10:12:38 (permalink)
    ChristopherM
    You don't describe the type of distortion, but I wonder whether this is connected with your OS's Power Options. I find that Sonar glitches very easily if any degree of Processor Power Management is engaged. Go to Control Panel - Power Options and ensure that you are using a High Performance option. If you want to go under the hood look for Minimum Processor State and make sure it's set to 100%.



    This is likely more of an interface issue than a SONAR issue, so it's worth doing if you also use audio programs other than SONAR.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #19
    ChristopherM
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/04 13:27:34 (permalink)
    I'm not convinced that Sonar is not implicated (at least in my case) although to be fair I rarely run Sonar without audio. Other software (albeit less demanding) does not seem to create the situation. That said, it is no big deal. I have Power Options pinned to my start menu, so it is a matter of seconds to switch to flat-out if Sonar (is involved in) glitches. The glitching immediately stops - I don't even have to stop the transport. I made the suggestion to OP largely because it is so easy to try, and if it solves OP's problem that would be great.
    #20
    guyshomenet
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/04 20:18:23 (permalink)
    orangesporanges
    Set the guitar track input to "none"after recording.See if it goes away and report back.



    Setting input to none made no difference. 
     
    ChristopherM
    Go to Control Panel - Power Options and ensure that you are using a High Performance option.

     
    Already set to High Performance, and for a few days at least I don't even have screen savers enabled. Minimum Power State was already at 100% (good thought though).
     
    Some experimenting with the various amplifies shows quite a bit of cross-channel distortion. So at least we are narrowing it down. But it is still weird that effects on the lead guitar track make the clean acoustic guitar track sound dirty/clipped/distorted.
     
     
    #21
    Cactus Music
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/04 22:05:36 (permalink)
    ASIO: Using the ASIO driver that Lexington provides for the Omega interface.
     
    This. Sorry, but there has never been anything good said about these drivers. 
    A new interface with trusted drivers is you best bet. 

    Johnny V  
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    #22
    guyshomenet
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/05 12:43:02 (permalink)
    Additional diagnostics:
    I cut to MP3 exports, one with the amp simulator and one with the distortion pedal (see notes above). The same degree of cross-channel distortion was present in the MP3 files.
     
    Perhaps there is something I don't understand about Sonar, but I would think that rendering the MP3 files would not have real-time, latency dependent issues. Since the induced cross channel distortion occurs in real-time (output over the Lexicon) and in the MP3 file, I think something else is afoot.
    #23
    ChristopherM
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/06 04:22:08 (permalink)
    Two thoughts:
     
    Rendering may be happening in real time or not depending upon how you have your settings. Also, I think some plug-ins only support real-time processing.
     
    What happens if you mute the track with the intended distortion during playback? The mute does not prevent the CPU-load from the processing of the signal. It only prevents the processed signal from getting through to the final mix. If the unintended distortion does not go away, that would suggest it is something to do with CPU contention or overload of some kind. If it does go away, that would suggest some kind of intermodulation effect, which would make me look very carefully for unintended signal routing between tracks and buses.
    #24
    ampfixer
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/06 14:01:14 (permalink)
    I think the real problem is that Lexicon drivers are not good and the O/P is looking for something complicated. I suggested he try WDM drivers instead of ASIO but he didn't say if that helped.

    Regards, John 
     I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
    WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig,  Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6 
    #25
    Anderton
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/06 14:38:25 (permalink)
    ^^ To which I would add also try the MME drivers, which is your basic lowest common denominator audio drivers. When troubleshooting always try the simple stuff first.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #26
    guyshomenet
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/07 18:30:23 (permalink)
    Well, now we have a real stumper.
     
    Finally had a chance to return to the studio and the problem went away. I configured the amp simulator  to what in the past was the most hoggish, nosiest configuration and it was the only distorted channel. I double checked the board to make sure nothing else had been tweaks (no telling what random keystroks the cats type when I'm out of the room) but it all looks the same.
     
    We must remember, this is a Window-based DAW, so random stuff is expected.
    #27
    ampfixer
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/08 02:32:44 (permalink)
    Balls.

    Regards, John 
     I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
    WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig,  Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6 
    #28
    guyshomenet
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/14 22:50:27 (permalink)
    And just as mysteriously as it went away, it came back (Sweet Jesus, this is balls).
     
    So, a bit more experimentation tonight before heading out for an open mic. I watched the CPU load a bit more closely. With the amp stack on, the CPU peaked at around 70%. But I noticed the CPU load was less erratic when the amp (not anything else in the simulator) was bypassed.
     
    For giggles I deleted the stack I was using and tried two others, including the odd little amp sim that comes with Sonar. They all produced the cross channel distortion, and all quit it with a simple bypass.
     
    I cranked the ASIO latency control to the highest level (most buffer). Only a extremely slight improvement (basely noticeable).
    #29
    Anderton
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    Re: Other channels distort after adding guitar effects 2016/01/14 23:09:30 (permalink)
    What's your processor and amount of memory?
    Have you followed the Friday's tip of the week that related to removing extraneous drivers that degrade performance?
     
    Guitar amp sim distortion traditionally draws a lot of CPU. At this point I'm beginning to think either your computer is underpowered, or something is compromising its power.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #30
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