M@ B
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Output meter to show actual Analog level?
Does Sonar have such a meter? How can I monitor the output level to see the actual audio level in terms of the typical 0dB to +3dB? The way I've been doing it is to run the output from the interface (VS100 which has unnumbered meters) to an analog mixer with everything set flat. Hopefully this is not necessary to do since it's adds a lot of circuitry to the signal path just to see the analog level. Thanks.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/05 18:10:27
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Hi there M@B Well first I would start by reading this thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2460452 It is a good starting point. We talk about the concept of digital reference levels and how that relates to analog output levels etc. You may need a special plugin meter like the BlueCat meter to give you accurate rms level output depending on what your digital ref level is of course. http://www.bluecataudio.c...Product_DPeakMeterPro/ Most DAW meters don't actually tell you much at all other than if you are peak clipping or not and that is not a lot of info really. (if they do show rms it is usually so far down on the meter scale it is not helpful) I have a pair of real VU meters permanently showing the rms levels on my stereo buss at all times. I can switch the calibration of those meters easily. I tend to work at K-12, K-14 and K-20 ref levels most of the time. (-14db a lot of the time) I believe it is better to keep rms levels constant through the production process and let the peaks take care of themselves as we used to do in the analog world. Now we are obsessed with peak levels and while people are good at keeping peak levels constant, their rms levels are all over the place on tracks, busses and the final mix buss. But the actual analog voltages created by your interface will vary depending on the digital reference levels you are working with.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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M@ B
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/05 20:48:40
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Thanks Jeff, it surprises me that such an important piece of information as the actual level of exported audio is not knowable with the included tools of a flagship DAW software like X1. ----------------------- I scanned through the thread link that you pasted and it started to make my eyes tear. I went to audio school back in 1990 and i forgot about all those ratios. To be honest, I don't want to calculate my rms level i just want to see it. -------------- Thanks also for the Blue Cat meter link, I will give that serious consideration, though I still think such a meter should come stock with Sonar Producer.... I smell a feature request! Thanks again.
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Eric Beam
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/05 20:54:43
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Every interface will output a different dBu analog level. DAW's will meter in dBFS (digital full-scale) Sonar has no way of knowing the voltage level of your interface outputs. This might help you out. http://rhythminmind.net/1313/?p=3224
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M@ B
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/05 21:09:21
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This is more technical than I thought it would be. I'm a bit confused, if Sonar has no way of knowing the voltage level across the interface outputs (even though it's a Cakewalk/Sonar interface), how does the BlueCat plugin know? Not knowing any better, it seems that interface output voltages should be standardized throughout the the industry to avoid such a problem. ------------------------- So what is the popular way that everyone monitors their analog output level? Does everyone use a Blue Cat plugin? Thanks again.
post edited by M@ B - 2012/02/06 00:35:54
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Eric Beam
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/05 21:48:10
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You just have to do some simple math based on your interface. Just find out what the maximum dBu level of your interface is capable of. For me when I use my Lynx hardware -16 dBFS in sonar = 0vu to the outside world, & -9 dBFS = 0vu to the outside world with my TC hardware. I have never used the blue cat meter but I'm guessing it has a calibration setting to adjust it to match your calibration level of choice.
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Eric Beam
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/05 21:50:09
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If you tel me the maximum dBu level of your interface outputs, I can tell you the 0vu analog value for your setup.
post edited by Eric Beam - 2012/02/06 01:26:15
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/05 22:49:39
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The best way to do it is to follow these steps.
Look at your interface specs and see what the nominal output levels are and if they are in fact +4dbu or -10 dbV. Switch your interface into the correct output. (many may not be adjustable)
You need to play back a signal that is the correct -db FS level to get this output. So if your interface says +4dbu then you are measuring a +4dbu signal level. You need a voltmeter to do this and it also needs to be true rms as well. (Some are not)(Also measure the signal over the balanced output, do not unbalance an output otherwise the level will be lower by -6dbu)
Another way to do it is to create a signal that is 0dbFS and play it back and see how far above +4db the output is. For example on my Yamaha digital mixer I get +18dbu when I do this so for +4dbu I need a digital level of -14 db FS. That tells me that my Yamaha mixer is based around a -14 db ref level.
This will vary! Some interfaces might deliver +24dbu when presented with a 0db FS signal playing back so their best ref level is going to be -20 db FS.
The Bluecat meter tells you nothing about output levels from your interface. It is calibrated only into 3 digital ref levels and they are -12, -14 and -20 db FS. Let us assume your interface is going to be around -14 db FS as the ref level, what the Bluecat meter does tell you is the rms level of the output as showing 0dbu on its meter when the signal is in fact at -14 db FS. It is just a nice way to keep everything at -14 db FS while the meter is just hitting 0dbu full scale. (there is in fact 14 db of headroom above this mark)
Use stereo test signals and playback on stereo tracks and just measure one output. This eliminates any pan law issues that may come into play.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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M@ B
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/05 23:41:04
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I had no idea this situation existed. I just thought that the meters on the vs100 were terrible. Well, I still think that, they are just fluctuating tick marks with no corresponding numerical values. -------------------- My main concern up to now has been how to achieve an rms level that has an average program level of about 0dB with peaks up to +3dB. I've been doing this by setting the interface output level at unity and running the interface's outputs to two channels on my mixer with both channels hard panned and set to unity gain. I then monitor the stereo meter on the mixer while adjusting the mix and overall level with Elephant on the master buss. Have my levels not been what I thought they have been?
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drewfx1
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/05 23:46:46
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M@ B
This is more technical than I thought it would be. I'm a bit confused, if Sonar has no way of knowing the voltage level across the interface outputs (even though it's a Cakewalk/Sonar interface), how does the BlueCat plugin know? Not knowing any better, it seems that interface output voltages should be standardized throughout the the industry to avoid such a problem. ------------------------- So what is the popular way that everyone monitors their rms output level? Does everyone use a Blue Cat plugin? Thanks again.
The output level of an interface (or D/A converter) doesn't really matter as long as it has enough headroom to handle the maximum 0dBFS digital level and has an output level within an acceptable range for whatever follows it. And there's always going to be gain stages afterwards to amplify the signal and adjust listening levels. The only way to know listening level is to know everything about the listening environment - not just the output level of the interface or D/A converter, but all of the gain stages after that, the power amplifier, speaker efficiency, listening distance, etc. The only way to try to deal with those things is to calibrate your system by measuring with a decent SPL meter using test signals. If you have a known and consistent relationship between everything, and only change your listening level with a single gain control marked in dB's, everything will be predictable.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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M@ B
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 00:00:06
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Wow, I really had no idea about this.Forgive my ignorance, this is the first I'm hearing of it all. ----------------- How do you guys export a mix at proper audio levels?
post edited by M@ B - 2012/02/06 00:39:46
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M@ B
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 00:20:51
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@ Eric Beam, from the specs on Roland's site: * Maximum output level: Nominal Output Level +18 dB. Thanks again to all for the info, something new to learn about...
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Eric Beam
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 02:22:54
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Well a few different issues have been brought up with this topic, I'll try to address each as simply as possible. - Terms dBFS (digital full scale) what your DAW will meter, dBu (analog voltage level), SPL (sound pressure) what comes out of your monitors.
- With your Roland +18 dBu interface outputs, -14 dBFS from your DAW will equal +4 dBu (or 0VU)
- "How do you guys export a mix at proper audio levels?" That all depends on what the mix is intended for. Music releases are un-regulated/un-referenced. Digital music is currently mastered to use the full digital bandwidth. Peaks are free to hit 0dBFS & without any average loudness regulation. So for music your free to do anything you like, but you will want to reference other releases to see how your master stacks up. Average pop/rock RMS levels are falling between -10/-6 dBFS for better or worse. But lets not focus on that, thats a loudness war issue. As I said music is un-referenced so the only "reference" we have is how our system sounds when playing back "full scale audio". At somepoint the music industry will hopefully use a referenced system like the Film & Broadcast industries have for many many years now. In the US professional Film/Post/Broadcast studios all use a -20 dBFS = +4 dBU/0VO level standard. (europe uses -18). This allows for elements, mixes, & final masters to be interchangeable & consistent. With this standard it allows for calibrated listening environments as well. Example - In my facility (most US post/mastering houses) +4dBu/0VU pink = 85 SPL. The real benefit of working at a set calibration level is that you learn what things should sound like at that set level. So when something sounds off you can easily catch it with your ears, without the need of any metering.
- With that in mind calibrate your room with a SPL meter. Set 0VU to equal some level of choice to get accustom to. I recommend you mark these SPL points 79, 82, & 85. This will allow your ears to have consistent translation from mix to mix. It's a very deep topic & i'll leave it at this.
post edited by Eric Beam - 2012/02/06 02:30:53
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M@ B
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 10:43:18
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Thanks Eric. I'm having a little trouble catching on to this new information b/c I still have too many question marks about what I was actually doing up to now. My approach, whether correct or incorrect, to getting "proper analog audio levels" out of the box (0dB average levels with +3dB peaks) has been by setting the interface output level at unity and connecting the interface's outputs to two channels on my analog mixer with both channels hard panned and set to unity gain. I then monitor the stereo meter on the mixer while adjusting the mix in the box and overall level with Elephant on the master buss. I have been getting what appears to be "normal and usual" levels on the analog meters. Is there something fundamentally wrong with this method? Knowing what is correct and/or incorrect about what I have been doing will help me to grasp these new concepts better. Thanks again.
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GIM Productions
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 11:11:19
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Eric Beam
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 15:07:39
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@ M@ B What mixer model are you monitoring thru?
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 15:36:43
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Hey GIM thanks for that link. Although I have real VU meters and I must admit they are nice to look at and are in a nice box etc I have always been after a nice VST equivalent. I have not found one yet that compares but this looks pretty decent. Not very expensive either. It looks as though there are lots of adjustments. I will get it and let you know how it compares to the real deal.
Calibrating levels etc is one thing but watching them and getting to know the ballistics of any given real VU meter is another. IMO the ballistics tell you a lot about the signal they are monitoring. I also like the sinlge VU meter and double meter concept as well. It is good to put them on tracks too and monitor incoming levels while tracking. I am sure if SOS recommended them they must be pretty OK.
Do they light up?
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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M@ B
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 15:55:01
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Eric Beam
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 17:27:15
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I just went over the user manual/specs, It's a good pairing with your roland interface. The way you have been running isn't horrible, but less then optimal as far as meter/voltage accuracy. I recommend the following for optimal setup calibration. - Turn you monitor cue down.
- With balanced interconnects connect the VS100 into the balanced inputs or the M-16E. I personally would monitor thru 3&4 of the VS100 just to get the volume pot out of the path.
- Set the M-16E channel Sens to +4
- Remember -14 dBFS = 0VU for your VS100.
- Download a 0 dBFS 1k tone from my site http://rhythminmind.net/1313/?p=2473
- Import the 1k tone & set it's channel volume to -14. (it's peak value in Sonar should read -14, this level equals +4dBu/0VU)
- Play this tone into the M-16E & set the faders to unity (7 or 8 from the picture) until the you are reading 0 on the M-16E peak meters. FYI - The M-16E will read 0 when it gets a +4 dBu/0VU signal.
- Your hardware is now correctly calibrated.
- The M-16E meters stop short. They only show 12dB above 0, But you actually have 14dB above 0 with your interface. This means when you have peaks @ -2 dBFS or higher in Sonar, the M-16E will be at the maximum LED meter indication. From the specs the M-16E won't actually be clipping at these levels.
- The M-16E can handle +20 dBu, This means the M-16E has more then enough headroom to handle the +18 dBu VS100 interface at this hardware matched calibration.
Option 2 - You can rescale your setup to meter the peaks that hit above 12dB.
- Play the 1k tone @ -14 from Sonar/VS100 (this equals +4dBu/0VU)
- Set the M-16E/faders to meter the +4dBu/0VU signal to read -3 on the M-16E.
- -3 on the M-16E now visually represents +4dBu/0VU
- You now have 15dB of metering headroom to meter all 14dB of level left from your VS100
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M@ B
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 18:06:26
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Thank you for taking the time to put together such a detailed set of instructions, that was very cool of you to do and is very appreciated. After reading the steps a couple of times, I think I should be able to handle doing that. Though for the same reason that you suggested that I use outputs 3 and 4 on the VS100 (to take the volume pot out of the path), I would not be opposed to and actually would welcome taking the M-16E out of the path by using a sufficient digital meter. A couple have been suggested, the Klanghelm VUs are just $9. Would these address the problem? Thanks again.
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Eric Beam
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 18:16:13
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Sure they will work, might want to try the free psp VU meters to see if you like using digital VU's. Just pick a calibration standard & get used to it.
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Eric Beam
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 18:21:43
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I personally have a few pieces of hardware that I tend to monitor. But at the end of the day the Nugen Visualizer is my goto mastering meter. I've been using the K-System for sometime now. http://www.nugenaudio.com/visualizer.php
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 18:24:16
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I have just ordered and paid for the VU meters from Klanghelm. They say it takes 24 hours to get the VST etc (or less hopefully)
I will let you know how they go and how well they work compared to the real VU's. I have tried the PSP meters and did not like them at all. They are nothing like real VU's. (tone wise and calibration they are fine but not ballistics)
Also it might be better to play back a tone recorded at -14 db FS and have that fader set at unity instead on your track but what Eric has suggested will also produce the same result. Don't use the meters in the M16E either, they might not tell you much. Are they proper VU response or just peak meters etc.. I think the Klanghelm meters will be good.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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M@ B
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/06 19:18:20
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I just went and checked out the metering options on Voxengo Elephant and there are 8 different settings to choose from (dbfs, dbfs+3, k20, k14, k12, k20c, k14c, k12c). I current have it set to dbfs, the default setting. Do any of the other options display the analog levels? ------------------ EDIT: After doing a little reading I've come to find out that "K-metering" requires the SPL of the monitoring area to first be calibrated. Realistically, I don't think I'll be doing that in the immediate future, maybe sometime down the line, but not now, especially since I'm not finished treating the room.
post edited by M@ B - 2012/02/06 23:36:33
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/07 02:27:59
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For those who are interested I have just download and tested the Klanghelm VU meter VST. It is pretty good actually. Out of the various VU meter VST's I have tried this one is probably the best so far.
There is still nothing like looking at two very nice expensive VU meters in a nice box and all but I must say these things are good. I had to tweak the fall time of the Klanghelm meter to get it to respond the same way as my API meters do. But it is very close.
In terms of monitoring input/buss/master levels they are spot on and agree very well with the real deal. I just have to watch the two of them for a while longer to see how the ballistics stack up. The real ones still seem slightly smoother in terms of how the needle sways etc but they are spot on in terms of showing levels etc. To be fair on the Klanghelm there are quite a few adjustments that effect how it moves so I will spend some more time on that. I feel I can get them very close to the real thing in time.
The Klanghelm is very good in showing digital peaks and lots of other info at the same time. Much more info in general than a normal VU would show. There are 4 skins but I like the standard one I think the best.
They are very cheap and would be a great addition to any DAW metering option. I still think the BlueCat meter in some ways is very hard to beat too but that is not a standard VU configuration but rather a bar graph option.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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GIM Productions
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/07 02:37:09
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Hi all,remember that you must turn on your post button in every prochannel for correct Klanghelm gain stage,but not in the master bus couse i will see the final gain RMS level of my prj.The last...use your VU level meters and your ears togheter.Best.Roby
Intel i7 3600,Asus Z170P,16 GIG Corsair ram,Focusrite Saffire Pro 26 i\o,Nektar Impact LX 49,Focusrite Liquid Mix,Monitors ADAM-K&H,Sonar Platinum Windows 10 SP1 Producer....more stuff in SStudio, Rome ,Italy.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/07 07:38:47
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Good Times!
best regards,
mike
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ltb
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/07 08:39:11
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THambrecht
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/07 10:34:31
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We digitize tapes, vinyl, dat, md ... in broadcast and studio quality for publishers, public institutions and individuals.4 x Intel Quad-CPU, 4GHz Sonar Platinum (Windows 10 - 64Bit) and 14 computers for recording tapes, vinyl ...
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bitflipper
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Re:Output meter to show actual Analog level?
2012/02/07 13:30:28
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M@B, consider picking up or borrowing an SPL meter. They're cheap. If you're in the U.S. you can get one at Radio Shack for around $30.
This device will allow you to calibrate your interface and speakers so that there is a known relationship between the meters in your DAW and the loudness you hear out of your speakers. That is the basis for the K system.
Once you've done that (and it's very easy to do), you should thereafter do just fine with Elephant's built-in meters set to one of the K settings. Start with K-14 and make some test masters. If it's not as loud as you'd like on your iPod or car stereo, switch to the K-12 standard. Which one you choose isn't as important as just choosing one and sticking with it.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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