Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum

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BruceSearl
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2016/12/08 21:23:09 (permalink)

Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum

Hi guys, I'm pretty new to working with sonar, lots of audio experience but little real hands on with sonar recording. I finally at a system that can handle it and I'm doing some recording. Tracking went well. everything is dandy and the wave forms appear to have lots of headroom. The problem is that by the time I get the ivory piano, simple acoustic guitar, lead vocal and bass all adding to the master... it's clipping/distorting.
 
Turning things down doesn't seem to help enough or much if at all... so someplace I'm overdriving something too... but I can't find it.
 
A clue might be that on the pro channel right between the "post" and "on-off" button there is a funny icon that looks like a line with a circle at one end that is mostly surrounded by a larger circle with a line coming off it. I have no idea what this is but it pulsates with loud signals of something when playing back and outlines with red on really strong peaks... so it's showing me a problem I'm guessing... but I can't tell what the problem is or how to fix it.
 
I've got about 18db of headroom on each channel, and I can trim things down but then the levels or just too soft to be anywhere close to other songs that I use as a reference for "loudness"
 
So... rightly setup my levels so that by the time I add my compression and fix.. I'm not too hot when it all comes together on the master?
 
how do I find and correct the main offenders?
 
What is that funny symbol (like an insert icon maybe)
 
would anyone be able to do a skype call or even with screen sharing to take a look and help me out? ;-)
 
Thanks in advance!
 
Bruce

"Anything worth doing is worth doing in excess." Bruce W. Searl
#1

10 Replies Related Threads

    microapp
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    Re: Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum 2016/12/08 22:03:54 (permalink)
    Do you have any pre-fader channel sends going directly to the Master bus ?.
    If so, the channel fader will not affect the signal going to the Master bus.
    Mute all the channels then enable them one-by-one and observe the effect on the Master.
    Also if each channel is -18db, each channel you add will decrease the Master headroom by 3db so 6+ channels may sometimes clip the Master bus.
    Make sure that the channel meters and Master meter are set to measure the same thing (peak or RMS). If the channel meters are set for RMS and the Master meter is set for peak, you will clip.

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    #2
    BruceSearl
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    Re: Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum 2016/12/08 23:26:49 (permalink)
    Hi,
    "pre-fader channel sends"  Not that I know of. If I mute everything... nothing goes to the master buss.
    the Six tracks are really a vocal, picked guitar that changed to light strum but I bring the volume down on it when that happens and a piano, another guitar picked part happens at the intro only and some glockenspiel bells at beginning and end, (they are not distorting at all) and a bass track that is in the second half of the tune.
    So really only 3-4 tracks at a time ever.
    This is a very simple mix, I'm just not doing something right ;-)
     
    channel meters are whatever the default is... but changing them would only display the signal level differently, the distortion is audible in the mix.
     
    I'm trying to figure out how the balancing act should be done to get all your tracks low enough so that they don't over drive the plugin or the master mix... sort of swimming in what the "right way" to find and fix the problem is.
     
    Do you know what this is? graphic is/means?
    https://goo.gl/photos/dUBxRMbWZ3yMPavq6


    thanks!
     
    Bruce
     
    #3
    BruceSearl
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    Re: Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum 2016/12/08 23:28:03 (permalink)
    By the way do you have your FW-1884 working with windows 10? I've got mine up for sale... could never get it to work reliably with newer OS. :-(

    Bruce
     
    #4
    microapp
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    Re: Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum 2016/12/09 00:43:41 (permalink)
    The FW-1884 works fine with win XP/7/8.1/10.
    You need to use the win 8.1 legacy 1394 firewire driver with win 10.
    What interface are you using now?
     
    The icon at the top next to the power button indicates audio is going into prochannel.
    The two dots over the meters are
    for audio track : indicate the ch has clipped. reset by clicking them.
    for midi track : indicate midi activity.
     
    https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=ProChannel.03.html
     
    Have you tried disabling any VST effects you have added.
    Hit the 'E' key on the PC kbd to toggle all VST effects on/off.
    I am unfamiliar with the VSTs shown in the photo so I don't know if you have any gain on these cranked.
     
    Why do you have input echo on ? The orange icon over the PAN ctrl which looks like cell phone bars.
    Turn it off when not recording.
    If you have active mics or instruments connected, this can cause problems while mixing via speakers.
     
    Are you simply having gain-staging issues ?
     
    I would get rid of everything but simple audio path.
    One ch routed to Master, all others muted.
    All vsts disabled. Power off prochannel.
    With faders at 0 db, the master should show the same level as the ch meter.
    If this is so, then add everything else back in one at a time.

    Sonar Platinum, Cubase Pro 8.5, Reaper 5, Studio One 2
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    #5
    BruceSearl
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    Re: Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum 2016/12/09 02:13:37 (permalink)
        The FW-1884 works fine with win XP/7/8.1/10.
        You need to use the win 8.1 legacy 1394 firewire driver with win 10.
        What interface are you using now?
     
    I'm using at scarlet 18i8 2nd gen. I have a claret 8pre but my ASUS mother board's thunderbolt interface doesn't work... out of warranty before I tried to hook anything up to it... so I've had that interface for a year now... without being able to use it! I have the 1884 for years... only been able to get it to work about 4 times and gave up trying to get it to work on win 7. Tried 3 different fire wire interfaces (each approved by TASCAM to work) there were just too many install hoops to jump through and then no success. after about 30 hours of wasted time over 4 years... I just gave up and then I had a big remodeling project that went rouge...
     
       The icon at the top next to the power button indicates audio is going into prochannel.
       The two dots over the meters are
       for audio track : indicate the ch has clipped. reset by clicking them.
       for midi track : indicate midi activity.
     
    Thanks... I figured  it was clipping but I missed that in my hour long search, I think I even saw that page in the manual but your explanation made more sense. ;-)
     
       [link=https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=ProChannel.03.html]https://www.cakewalk.com/...elp=ProChannel.03.html[/link]
     
       Have you tried disabling any VST effects you have added.
       Hit the 'E' key on the PC kbd to toggle all VST effects on/off.
       I am unfamiliar with the VSTs shown in the photo so I don't know if you have any gain on these cranked.
     
    Nice, when I hit the E key, it got an instant fatal error and sonar crashed. :-).
    Those are waves plugin's CLA is Chris Lord Algee, 76 compressor.  I can disable them but I'm betting that they are where my problem is... I just don't know enough about compression to set it right so I think I've got things scewy there even with using the presets, which sound great, but I think it's getting my signal too hot right there. The other is a Bass thickener thingymabob but I can turn it off too.

       Why do you have input echo on ? The orange icon over the PAN ctrl which looks like cell phone bars.
       Turn it off when not recording.
       If you have active mics or instruments connected, this can cause problems while mixing via speakers.
     
    I turn it off, but when I click away from the channel it just comes back on again automatically. No mics are hot and I'm not in any recording mode. that bass is from a midi keyboard so I think it's just figuring, hey, there is a keyboard here on this midi line and you'll need to hear it when you play so it turns back on ;-)
     
       Are you simply having gain-staging issues ?
     
    I think it's a combination of gain and compression abuse/misuse/alien invasion! ;-)
     
    I'm very used to analog boards... I'm very computer savvy, but I'm missing some basic's of how to properly build my mix from the get go and I've never used compression really other than presets. People and tutorials mostly just say adjust it until it sounds right... great... that is useless info if I don't know what is sounds right is like. ;-)

       I would get rid of everything but simple audio path.
       One ch routed to Master, all others muted.
       All vsts disabled. Power off prochannel.
       With faders at 0 db, the master should show the same level as the ch meter.
       If this is so, then add everything else back in one at a time.
     
    If I turn off all the fx/compression/plugins... it doesn't clip or distort... I know that... and I know it's got a lot to do with how my compression and plugins are messing with things. it does sound much better with my EQ and effects in... but the total sum is just too much. Mostly the base and piano are the problem.
     
    If I get them loud enough to balance the vocal, then they distort both on their own channel and push the master into clipping...
     
    If I bring the vocal down then I can keep everything else down but then my master level is way lower than most recorded reference songs I compare it to. So building backwards from a strong but not clipping vocal... there is no way to get there. And if I keep that vocal level lower, then when it's all balanced in and clean... the end result is that the vocal is about 12-15db softer than another similar mix by someone who knows what they are doing ;-)
     
    so you can see that I'm missing something in the foundation of how to build up the mix correctly. If I do keep everything softer.. how do I then get it all to come up to a radio ready level? YouTube music video in this case ;-)
     
    Thanks for you help.
    Bruce
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum 2016/12/09 04:29:42 (permalink)
    If I do keep everything softer.. how do I then get it all to come up to a radio ready level?

     
    This is usually done in mastering, not in mixing.
     
    How do your levels look if you bypass all Fx? (hit 'E')
     
    If they look ok, then switch them back on again.
    Now switch off the Pro Channel for every track and then switch them on again one at a time until you find which track or tracks are causing the overload.

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    Zargg
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    Re: Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum 2016/12/09 07:29:35 (permalink)
    BruceSearl
    By the way do you have your FW-1884 working with windows 10? I've got mine up for sale... could never get it to work reliably with newer OS. :-(

    Bruce
     


    Hi. I have a FW1884 as well working in Win 10. I used Tom Deering's site to help me set it up.
    http://deeringamps.com/fw1884/sonarx1b_fw1884.htm
    You will need a Texas Instruments FW card.
    Download the SONAR plugin (1.22)form here, and the Win driver (1.80): 
    http://tascam.com/product/fw-1884/downloads/
    As mentioned earlier, you need the Legacy 1394 FW driver. It can be found here: 
    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=44219
    Hope it helps.
    All the best.

    Ken Nilsen
    Zargg
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    #8
    jb101
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    Re: Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum 2016/12/09 08:52:06 (permalink)
    The light you mention indicates that one or more of the PC modules may be overloading.

    What PC modules are you using?

    Have you tried turning down the gain knob at the top of the console.

    Gain staging is vital throughout the signal chain.

     Sonar Platinum
    #9
    jb101
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    Re: Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum 2016/12/09 09:17:41 (permalink)
    Just read your answer above more thoroughly.

    Go through each stage in the chain turning stuff down. Turn down the trim so the first module isn't overloading. There is a red light at the top of each one.

    Turn down the gain on the ca2a so the next one isn't overloading.

    I do not know your specific 76 comp, but it should have an output control if it's like a 1176.

    Be aware that any PC FX chain clipping light doesn't work.

    HTH

     Sonar Platinum
    #10
    chuckebaby
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    Re: Overdriving Master level mix problems in Sonar Platinum 2016/12/09 22:22:20 (permalink)
     
     Global input meter: The Activity indicator that shows if any module is processing audio.
    Not much info on Color changes and/or different Themes that change a Global input meter.
     
    I believe Tungsten is always red regardless if it is hot or not.
    Are you using Tungsten as your default theme ?
     

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