spindlebox
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PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
I sort of asked this on the Pro studio forum, but I really need to know:
I get my stuff mastered by JamzOr and I was wondering if it is a good idea to compress my mixes or go ahead and let the Mastering Engineer do it? My thought behind it is, let the pros handle it where it may be something I could screw up pretty well.
My SOP is to send them out uncompressed, with just a touch of BBE on the master bus.
Thoughts?
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Inthorns
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 09:13:58
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thebiglongy
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 09:42:04
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Very useful post that was Inthorns....damn noobies. I would send them uncompressed mate and leave it to JamzOr to sort it out for you. Just make sure you leave enough headroom to give JamzOr room to work and get things tight.
post edited by thebiglongy - 2008/10/22 09:56:54
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Spaceduck
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 09:43:01
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Yup, just send him the raw mix straight off the board (I wouldn't even add the BBE). Jamz does a great job & he doesn't sqash it to death, which means you can always experiment with your own squashage later, if that's what you want. I just leave it exactly the way he does. I admit my songs aren't as loud as some of the other songs I hear on Soundclick (or the radio!) but I'll take dynamics over volume any day
post edited by Spaceduck - 2008/10/22 09:58:03
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ohhey
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 10:10:57
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If you like what the mastering engineer does then let them do most of the compression.
However, it might be a good idea to use some compression while mixing so you can hear about what it's going to sound like. I've found that if you mix without compression and do it later you can end up with changes in the mix balance. For example the dry mix may have been perfect but after adding compression there is too much kick and hi-hat or just too much low end in everything.
Then after you get the mix sounding good take the compressor off and do the export for the mastering house.
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Spaceduck
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 12:44:14
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GREAT suggestion, oh! Til now I've always tried to anticipate the compression effect (pump the snare an extra few dB because it'll get lost, etc...) It never occurred to me that I could put a temporary compressor on the whole mix to hear what it'll actually sound like. duh...
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Inthorns
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 12:46:56
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Just trying to build an audience so someone answers the poor guy......thebiglongy.
Damn bitter, pretentious - bies.
peace-keys
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spindlebox
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 15:02:59
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ORIGINAL: Inthorns
Just trying to build an audience so someone answers the poor guy......thebiglongy.
Damn bitter, pretentious - bies.
peace-keys
Ha, no worries about me my friend. As you can see, there are plenty of helpful people in this forum. Ohhey, that's a great suggestion about the temporary compressor. Yeah, I've noticed that Jamz' output isn't as loud as other things, but as I told him, I'm more than willing to "sacrifice" dynamics for loudness! As I also said, we'll never be huge, so I'm not playing into the loudness wars. OK, so no compression over to the mastering house and yes, I usually leave about -6db headroom. Thanks!
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thebiglongy
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 15:06:54
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ORIGINAL: spindlebox
Ha, no worries about me my friend. As you can see, there are plenty of helpful people in this forum.
Ohhey, that's a great suggestion about the temporary compressor. Yeah, I've noticed that Jamz' output isn't as loud as other things, but as I told him, I'm more than willing to "sacrifice" dynamics for loudness! As I also said, we'll never be huge, so I'm not playing into the loudness wars.
OK, so no compression over to the mastering house and yes, I usually leave about -6db headroom.
Thanks!
I think you mean "Sacrifice Loudness for Dynamics" and not ""sacrifice" dynamics for loudness!"
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ohhey
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 15:14:18
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ORIGINAL: spindlebox
ORIGINAL: Inthorns
Just trying to build an audience so someone answers the poor guy......thebiglongy.
Damn bitter, pretentious - bies.
peace-keys
Ha, no worries about me my friend. As you can see, there are plenty of helpful people in this forum.
Ohhey, that's a great suggestion about the temporary compressor. Yeah, I've noticed that Jamz' output isn't as loud as other things, but as I told him, I'm more than willing to "sacrifice" dynamics for loudness! As I also said, we'll never be huge, so I'm not playing into the loudness wars.
OK, so no compression over to the mastering house and yes, I usually leave about -6db headroom.
Thanks!
I like to mix in "what-you-hear-is-what-you-get" mode. It takes fewer tries to get it right. I don't think -6db is a good idea, I've found that a upward level change of more then 2db combined with compression during mastering can cause the track balance of the mix to be off, maybe in a good way but it's going to sound different then you expected.
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Guitarhacker
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 15:33:18
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If... I was having an outside party master for me...I would send the dry mix with no FX and no compression. Get the mix right.... cause if they're mastering, mixing should be done already. They should get a stereo wave file from you. You should get back a stereo wave file..mastered and ready to go to CD.
If the mastering does not produce the loudness level you are seeking, it is easy enough afterwards to apply an audio editor, where you can increase the gain as deemed necessary.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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spindlebox
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 18:10:47
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I think you mean "Sacrifice Loudness for Dynamics" and not ""sacrifice" dynamics for loudness!" Nope, if I would have meant that, I would have typed it. I like to mix in "what-you-hear-is-what-you-get" mode. It takes fewer tries to get it right. I don't think -6db is a good idea, I've found that a upward level change of more then 2db combined with compression during mastering can cause the track balance of the mix to be off, maybe in a good way but it's going to sound different then you expected. Hmmm, that's strange. Every mastering engineer that I've dealt with (with perhaps the exception of JamzOr), has requested that as a minimum. QUOTE: .[2] It's very important to allow enough headroom for the mastering engineer's work. Many mastering engineers working with digital equipment would agree that a minimum of 3 to 6 dB of available headroom is critical to perform good mastering. Ideal peak levels should not exceed -3dBFSD and the average sum of the left and right channels should be at around -10 to -18 dBFSD (As shown on the picture to the right). SOURCE: Wikipedia
post edited by spindlebox - 2008/10/22 18:22:12
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mattplaysguitar
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 18:57:12
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If there is a particular technique you would like to see on the mastering, why not do it yourself, and send him two copies? Maybe if you have an idea to how compressed you want it to be, do your own compression, and then say 'here, that's how compressed I want it to be, now do it properly with this raw track here'. I have also read that some mastering houses like you to send them the raw track, then another one exactly the same with the vocals 2dB higher, and then another one with the vocals 2dB lower. This way if vocals jump out or are lost at all during the compression process, they have another version to work with to get it just right. Also if you are working in 24bit, I really don't think it matters how much headroom you have as long as it's not clipping. If you are working in 16 bit it does start to matter as the noise floor could become significant. If they need more room for analogue devices, they can turn it down. As it is all digital, I don't see how normalised to -1dB is any different to normalising to -6dB, provided you take the noise floor as negligible. The information is still the same. If I am wrong on this, please correct me 
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spindlebox
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/22 21:10:14
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I have also read that some mastering houses like you to send them the raw track, then another one exactly the same with the vocals 2dB higher, and then another one with the vocals 2dB lower. This way if vocals jump out or are lost at all during the compression process, they have another version to work with to get it just right. Sounds too much like work!!!! Fortunately, if something is off, JamzOR tells me and I can fix it and re-send. Something to be said about working for a smaller business. Also, there's a certain element of trust I employ when working with the same people over and over. There's a point where you have to say "it's done" and realize that you can no longer listen objectively, and leave it in others' capable hands. Maybe if you have an idea to how compressed you want it to be, do your own compression, and then say 'here, that's how compressed I want it to be That would mean I would KNOW how compressed I want it to be. I don't know enough about it to get to that point in the first place. I'm really not using MASTER BUS COMPRESSION (which is what we're talking about here) as a SOUND, but more of the "thing to do" when it comes to finishing the tunes. Again, I think this is best left to the pros with FRESH EARS. Certainly, this is something I'll learn down the road, but I'm more interested in the creative side of things, rather than the engineering side. I've been pretty happy with results in the past, so I'll just keep doing what I'm doing - I hear few complaints from those that I've had do my mastering, so I guess I'll just work on my recording and mixing skills. I do employ compression on my drum tracks, bass and sometimes vocal tracks to great effect, though, so perhaps the natural progression will be to do the overall mix. Baby steps. Thanks to all for your comments!
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altima_boy_2001
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/23 01:48:34
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I like to mix in "what-you-hear-is-what-you-get" mode. It takes fewer tries to get it right. I don't think -6db is a good idea, I've found that a upward level change of more then 2db combined with compression during mastering can cause the track balance of the mix to be off, maybe in a good way but it's going to sound different then you expected. I would expect the difference you hear to come more from not monitoring at equal volume levels and not from increasing gain in the file. If you take the time to ensure that you monitor at equal volume by adjusting your monitor's volume knob then you probably won't hear as much of a difference. At least you'll be better able to judge exactly what the compressor is doing to you audio. Buy a cheap SPL meter from Radio Shack (~$50), keep it handy, and always listen to your material at the same volume level. Most people's ears have the flattest response between 75-85 dB SPL which is considered louder than most everyday sounds, but not harmful/damaging to ears when listened to for a reasonable amount of time.
You can use me as your eSoundz referral (altima_boy_2001).
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Buddy110
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/23 11:37:48
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gotta ask this. what is the best file type to export the mix for mastering? wave?, RAW Broadcast Wave? and what dithering (I've seen somewhere that pow-r 3 gives the best dithering/bounce quality (?)
post edited by Buddy110 - 2008/10/23 11:43:34
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spindlebox
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/23 15:12:04
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Good question, buddy! I usually do 24bit WAV's myself, but the dithering thing - irregardless of the fact that I've read innumerable threads about it - remains a mystery. There seems to be (in my travels) a consensus to use the POW-R3 setting as being the best, however, I'll be the first to say that I'm no expert.
To be honest, I've sent my files for mastering totally raw and exported WITHOUT DITHERING. Perhaps I should be strung up from the highest rafters? I honestly can't hear a difference. And, to again be honest, I doubt my listeners can either.
I'd love to hear an explanation about why and what we should be using for dithering, from those in the know.
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thebiglongy
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/23 18:11:09
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Ok call me picky but reading......
Ohhey, that's a great suggestion about the temporary compressor. Yeah, I've noticed that Jamz' output isn't as loud as other things, but as I told him, I'm more than willing to "sacrifice" dynamics for loudness! As I also said, we'll never be huge, so I'm not playing into the loudness wars.
This to me says that you are playing into the loudness wars by "Sacrificing" (as you put it) the Dynamics of the song, for the sake of making it Louder...hence competing in the loudness war.
However if your never going to make it huge (by your own admission) then why bother with the loudness war? You have a volume knob, make use of it. I'd still rather be able to turn up or turn down my volume and be able to hear the dynamics and clarity of the song, than spend my time listening to something that neither good nor clever.
Saying this, if what you meant by your comments is indeed what i have previously mentioned in this post then fair do's.
As for -6db, there's nothing wrong with that level, this will leave it to the mastering engineer to be able to conserve the dynamics and boost the overall volume enough but NOT too much.
Plus, JamzOr has done some very impressive bits on this forum, so im sure you'll be in safe hands....infact it would have just been easier to ask him via PM to get his advice...rather than have a bunch of mixed opinions by some of us who are NOT mastering engineers and only claim to know what is THE BEST way. Each engineer will prefer a different way, but as long as the dynamics and clarity are good without the levels being pushed, then it should make the job a lot easier on the poor sod having to do it :D
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spindlebox
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/23 18:41:49
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This to me says that you are playing into the loudness wars by "Sacrificing" (as you put it) the Dynamics of the song, for the sake of making it Louder...hence competing in the loudness war.
However if your never going to make it huge (by your own admission) then why bother with the loudness war? You have a volume knob, make use of it. I'd still rather be able to turn up or turn down my volume and be able to hear the dynamics and clarity of the song, than spend my time listening to something that neither good nor clever.
Saying this, if what you meant by your comments is indeed what i have previously mentioned in this post then fair do's. My intent is being misconstrued. It's exactly the opposite of what you've interpreted, and I should have worded it differently to avoid confusion. I put QUOTES around Sacrifice as a "tongue-in-cheek" comment, meaning I would sacrifice dynamics VS. HAVING loudness. Meaning, I'd be willing to sacrifice being as loud as everyone else. See what I mean? I should have said: "I'd rather have dynamics than loudness". I admit, very poorly worded. So in that case I'm NOT playing into the loudness wars. But let's not nitpick, and get off point. I apologize for my unclear statement. And, no, I'll never make it huge. The sooner I come to terms with that, the more fun I'll have. That doesn't mean that I don't put everything I have into what I do for the pure love of it — but if the moon turns blue and cows fly, and hell freezes over and I DO make it huge - COOL!
post edited by spindlebox - 2008/10/23 18:49:14
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thebiglongy
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/23 19:22:50
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Ahh all clear now :D
Well here's to hoping you make it :D
Im currently in the process of taking my band out live, we're having our first bit of a taster session out this sunday to work out some of the sequencing bits, then it's full steam ahead and plans of gigging spring/summer next year....will take that long before im happy that everything is covered. Unless we hit the sweet spot before then...then it's gig time :D
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spindlebox
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/24 07:08:41
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Well here's to hoping you make it :D Thanks, but if this list from MYSPACE is any indication, it won't happen on a major scale! We'll always be an "underground" band, and that's JUST FINE with me!!*: Top Music Searches Lil Wayne Akon T.I. Katy Perry Plies Chris Brown T Pain Shwayze Miley Cyrus Rihanna *most of my favorite bands and heroes are "underground".
post edited by spindlebox - 2008/10/24 07:13:51
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Lanceindastudio
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/24 08:09:22
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It wasnt poor wording. It as incorrect wording according to what you meant.
If you sacrifice something for something else, the thing that you sacrifice is what is lost. For example, if you sacrifice the life of a goat for your god, the goats life is lost in effort to please your god-
So, when you were corrected in your typing, it was relevant. According to what you meant, you typed it wrong. It was incorrect English because you admit that you want the dynamics more than the loudness, therefor you dont sacrifice dynamics for loudness, but you sacrifice(give up) loudness for dynamics.
The correction was completely legit. He figured you meant that, and, in my opinion, it is good that you value dynamics over loudness!
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spindlebox
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RE: PROFESSIONAL MASTERING - To Compress or Not Compress?
2008/10/24 09:22:29
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ORIGINAL: Lanceindastudio
It wasnt poor wording. It as incorrect wording according to what you meant.
If you sacrifice something for something else, the thing that you sacrifice is what is lost. For example, if you sacrifice the life of a goat for your god, the goats life is lost in effort to please your god-
So, when you were corrected in your typing, it was relevant. According to what you meant, you typed it wrong. It was incorrect English because you admit that you want the dynamics more than the loudness, therefor you dont sacrifice dynamics for loudness, but you sacrifice(give up) loudness for dynamics.
The correction was completely legit. He figured you meant that, and, in my opinion, it is good that you value dynamics over loudness!
Holy crap! How did the compression thread turn into an English lesson? (I really have to stop typing after naps . . . . )
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