Panning, Stereo field managment

Hi Chuck

How I see it; 

I treat panning similar to how I see the musicians on stage.

Sure I might get crits about drummers only have two hands and two feet but I squash that theory by saying... excuse me but my band has two drummers and a percussionist that can't get enough caffeine. 

The main focus is simple; it's important that each instrument has its own space in the stereo field. 

The following is a rough guide only to demonstrate the use of the entire stereo field and separation of each instrument in the mix:  


. Lead vocal main - out front: C
. Lead vocal layer: stereo echo/delay or 100% L
. Lead vocal layer: stereo echo/delay or 100% R
. Lead vocal grunge: C (yet another separate recording)
. Harmony Voc 1: 75 % L
. Harmony Voc 2: 75 % R
. Harmony Voc 3: 85 % L
. Harmony voc 4: 85 % R
. Harmony Voc 5: 50 % L
. Harmony Voc 6: 50 % R
No auto-harmonizer used. It's all human effort. 
. Bass #1 Clear, punchy (bit of distortion): C
. Bass #1 Rounded, more body: C
. Guitar #1: 98% L
. Guitar #1A Layer: 100% L
. Guitar #2: 98% R (or swap for other instrument)
. Guitar #2B Layer: 100% R (or swap for other inst)
. Lead: 8% L or R with echo/delay
. Piano: 35% R - might change depending on song. 
. Main Strings - Synth 35% L 
. SynthStrng #1 60% L or 100% depends on song arrangement
. SynthStrng #2 60% R or 100% depends on song arrangement
. FX Pads, Swirls, sweeps from 100% L to R
(FX Pad is usually pre-programmed part of the sound)
. Kick (Addictive Drums): C
. Kick Layer (GrooveSynth Classic 909, 808 Kick) C
. Snare #1: (Addictive Drums) 10% R
. Snare #2: (GrooveSynth) 10% R
. Hi-Hats: 15% L
. Ride Bell: 15% R (sometimes L)
. Ride Sizzle: 20% L (sometimes R)
. Crash Cym Low: 40% R
. Crash Cym Med: 40% L
. Splash Cym: 20% R
. Tambourine: 15% R (sometimes 10% R swap for Snare)

Again; the above is a rough guide, I don't have the exact specs on my mix. There are more instruments that I have not included here; mostly layers and other parts that come in/out of the arrangements. 

Often times,  use the staage visual as well; however, like everything else, it varies from song to song. 

I was watching a YT vid about LCR Panning (Hard Left, Center, Hard Right).

It in he felt that doing so pushes what doesn't need focus out of the way. He also said that it helps getting things to fit in the mix as you see if something is (volume wise) is too high or too low.

Again, it varies from song to song, but he was advocating using the entire stereo field which is what you get when you pan things Hard Left and Right.

Something that was noted about my tracks in their earlier stages.

So, yeah, experment with different pan %s

What I've found peculiar is that most mixes on the radio have the drums panned according to the drummer's perspective, not the listener's.
I personally prefer the listeners perspective.

Before I forget- Thank you all for your replies so far & thank you again for future replies!

Songcraft- I am intrigued by how many layers you have going.   I have never done more than 2 recorded layers of the main vocal.  (many singers can't sing the same exact way twice in a row, I am a creature of habit I suppose.  When I lock down what and how I am singing &/or playing guitar I play it identical every time.  I can't tell you how many times tracking vocals or a guitar lead I thought "well that was ok, but let me lay one or 2 more and then pick from them which one to use" I find one I think felt better then listen back and they are all identical performances.  Go figure?

Mp3- yep, I appreciate the tip.  I have one song that I have the kick panned about 8% opposite the bass guitar track because they kept stepping on one another but I liked the eq I had.  It works well and I am not planning to print to vinyl so why not right?  In the case I was talking about in the first post my issue was too much separation, kind of the opposite.

Rus- It certainly helps to get ambient non-focal parts out of the way on the and at the sides.   Speaking of which...  Which panning law do you guys use?   honestly, I have the default still on and it drives me crazy.   I hate that if I have a guitar part set to be peaking at say -8db and then try moving it hard left it is now peaking in the left channel!   Which one of the panning laws is going to leave it at -8db and just move it to the left without boosting it?

Chuckebaby- I prefer drummer perspective too, I know it irritates some of the folks on here but unless they wanna produce my music for me, I am doing that my way.  It's a subjective thing not a right and wrong thing.  
  As for the bass are you saying you clone 2 more copies and have them lower and to the sides while compressing the crap out of the center track?  I've never tried it!?   
    *OFFTOPIC* One thing that seems to have helped my mixes is I stopped beatting the compressors to death.  on an individual bass or guitar track I used to have it running with 8-15db of gain reduction with 7:1 ratios and use make up gain to get it back which beat up the dynamics within the part (little nuances like palm mutes etc).  I am now keeping it down around 4-5 db GR with ratios around 4:1 for guitar tracks and to me it sounds much more natural and breathes better. what do you think?

Gustabo- Agreed.  Though in other peoples music, listener perspective doesn't bother me.  In mine it does.  In my music, if I am playing drums on that song the perpective I am used to is obvious, but if I am out front on guitar for that song even though the kit is behind me I am still hearing it in drummer perspective so that's where I tend to want it on the record.  It's just a personal preference.

Rus I i'd still rather control that manally.  Maybe I am nuts?  Maybe I am wrong but if the fader needs to get boosted after a pan I am perfectly capable of doing that manually to my own taste ya know?

ChuckC


Rus I i'd still rather control that manally.  Maybe I am nuts?  Maybe I am wrong but if the fader needs to get boosted after a pan I am perfectly capable of doing that manually to my own taste ya know?

Yeah, I know. I was explaning (as best I could) what happens and I did say you could control it. (Manually adjusting volume, EQ, etc.).

Rus W


^ There's a reason that happens!

Not sure how to explain it, but I think of it like this:

You know when audio files are expanded, the sound stretches; yet, when it's compressed, the sound is tightly packed closer together? (When looking the waveform. Not to beconfused with Zoom/In/Out)

This is what's happening and you hear it back down sped up or slowed down (tempo - not pitch shift)

If the guitar in dead center, the meter is green often, but the further you pan over to either extreme, it gradually goes to red. This is because you've truncated the space in the spectrum; therefore, the sound gets louder (and the meter for that channel heads towards clipping) to compensate for it as only one channel (L or R is used instead of two (L and R). Of course, one channel could have more weight on it than the other depending on how far it is away from the center.

Remember being taught absolute value in math? That is how panning works! How far am I away from zero?

The piano is at -3dB, dead center (0); however, given what happens when it's panned to either side, that's what causes the clipping! The severely limited space of the sound being heard across the stereo field.

Pick any sweeping sound and pay attention to the meter! Regardless of what the volume is, once a wall (channel) is hit, the meter should bleed.

Again, as you pan, available space within that channel dwindles, so the sound increases in volume to compensate (that's why hard panning evokes clipping). This doesn't mean you can't do it as few tweaks to either volume or EQ (most often) will take care of it.

I may be off, so someone correct me if I 
  
  
  
  
  
  
 
 
 
 
 
  
 

Do the more recent additions of Sonar (versions beyond 6) still use panning laws?

mp3,
   Bro, I don't take that as being mean at all...  I asked for your opinion and you gave me yours without sayin something like "it would sound better if you hadn't put it in the trash compactor" so we're good.  LMAO!

   That doesn't suprise me at all and I am sure you may well be right.  I had no formal training so starting from presets on compressors like the sonitus "electric guitar preset" does start you off really high.  It took me a little while to really start to hear the differences and understand how to improve the sound.  I am still learning of course and am by no means an expert.  I appreciate the tip.  So thank you!

I also forgot to mention here....you got some good advice with panning. However, each song will be different. When you listen to the song, it should paint its own picture. Starting points are cool at times, but it's nice to start the mix at the center position and just build on it. What may have sounded right from an old project may not sound right here. So you can't really use the same formula every time. I mean you CAN, but why would you? That's sort of like playing the same guitar solo in every song or playing the same basic, boring drum line in everything.

One thing I've learned in this field is.....if you get too comfortable, you never grow or change. Always try to mix it up and change things up. For example...most of us have about 400 plugins on our systems. We may use 50 of them total, right? Why not try a project with the plugs you have never used before and log it so you can see what results you get? Certain plugs do things to the sound field...so this forces you to pan differently. Run a few different eq's or compressors you haven't tried...see how it makes your song sound different. Then save that mix, and open up the original project and use your go to plugs and see how different it sounds. If you stay with something too long, it's like lifting weights....one day, the exercises lose their lustre` and you have to change your routine. This forces the muscles to grow. If we did cable fly's for a year, one day you will notice you're not getting that chest pump anymore. You move to dumbell fly's laying on the bench and low and behold....you feel the peck pump. This is forcing the muscle to grow due to changing the routine those muscles are used to.

The same with you as an engineer. You don't grow if you don't experiment and change here and there. Using templates over and over stop you from growing because there are certain things that will never be put in the road for you to learn from. It's all subjective at the end of the day, but it helps when you try new things each time just to see how you make out. Lab work is good brother....I try to do it once per week at all times just to dive in to areas I may have been too conservative on. :)

-Danny

mp3, Bro, I don't take that as being mean at all... I asked for your opinion and you gave me yours without sayin something like "it would sound better if you hadn't put it in the trash compactor" so we're good. LMAO! That doesn't suprise me at all and I am sure you may well be right. I had no formal training so starting from presets on compressors like the sonitus "electric guitar preset" does start you off really high. It took me a little while to really start to hear the differences and understand how to improve the sound. I am still learning of course and am by no means an expert. I appreciate the tip. So thank you!

 
 
 
I was not trying to be mean that time either
But I admit to coming off as a bit of a dick.
 
All that aside
 
I have no formal training either. And the little bit I do know took a long, long time.
And in my opinion a compressor is probably the most difficult to use when first starting out.
Unfortunately its the most dangerous as well.
 
So keep your chin up. The minute we stop learning stuff (never) is the same time we should quit.
Know what I mean.  :  )

MP3ISTHEDEVIL

+ 1 on the above post! (Doesn't surprise me who it came from!)

 
 
 
Ha!
 
Maybe Ill turn my screen name to "chop liver"
 
 
Panning laws?

I don't know if I'd call it a "law," but if you're asking if this happens with most if not all DAWs, then I would think so!


(Btw, do not do that!)

Pan law, or pan rule, is a recording and mixing principle that states that any signal of equal amplitude and phase that is played in both channels of a stereo system will increase in loudness up to 6.02 dBSPL, provided there is perfect response in the loudspeaker system and perfect acoustics in the room.
Often, the acoustic summing of a room and system are much inferior to the ideal, so the specific relative level will change from −3 dB to 0 dB as the mono signal is panned from center to hard left or right, and this sounds natural. The idea is that when one directs signals left and right with the pan pot, the perceived loudness will stay the same, regardless of latitude.
However, both the direction of attenuation throughout the panoramic sweep and the amount by which the signal is attenuated vary according to pan rule. For example, the Yamaha digital consoles employ a typical (compromise) 3 dB pan rule, however, the signal is at full level at 12:00 and becomes progressively louder (up to + 3 dB) as it is panned to the right or left.
The 3 dB pan rule is a commonly applied compromise to comply with the mediocre acoustic summing capabilities of most control rooms. However, the console manufacturer SSL used to employ a 4.5 dB pan rule, because it was believed that their expensive consoles would normally be used in tuned rooms that had acoustic summing capabilities closer to the ideal.
Many consoles that have only one pan rule employ one such that a signal panned hard left or right is at full level and becomes progressively lower in level as the pan is directed to the center.
According to mastering engineer Glenn Meadows, the Kino****a-Hidley rooms at Masterfonics (Nashville, Tennessee), produce close to 5.9 dB acoustic summing when both loudspeakers are presented with the same in-phase signal.

Yes Mp3 they still have the same options.  I am not sure which is the default?  I bielieve it may be the:
0dB center, sin/cos taper constant power


Either was I am still on the default where it adds 3 db on the fader panned hard L or R, 0 at center.

If you have a stereo source, be sure to use the channel tools instead of pan.  It is a balance knob and LRC will often lose part of the stereo sound.  The Channel Tool is much more precise, too.

@

PAN LAWS CHART

[link=http://ltibbits.public.iastate.edu/downloads/SonarForum/Pan-Laws/Sonar-6-pan-laws.pdf]http://ltibbits.public.ia...s/Sonar-6-pan-laws.pdf[/link]

 
 
Good find Bats!
 
If we take the time to do all the other stuff that makes a mix.
 
 
ps
Tracking in mono and using the 0dB center, balance control is the only method uneffected