Panning of guitars

Hi all,
 
Quick question - when mixing a tune with traditional left and right guitars - what's your preference?  Do you pan them hard (100%) left and hard (100%) right?  Or 75/75 so the mix isn't so wide?  Does it depend on the tune (what other instruments may be used, etc)
 
I typically pan hard left and hard right, but was curious what others do

All depends on the listening environment of the end user, some people only use L-C-R and no in between's. If  your not listening from the optimum position then perfect stereo can often be worse than mono.
 
Roy.

It depends on other instruments in the song and how you want the guitars to sound in that particular song. sometimes its hard left and right, sometimes its 80% left and right, sometimes its 50% left and 100% right and so on.  If you are the producer and mixing this song, I would try some different panning positions and see what works best for that song.
 
Each song will have different needs, so take each song on a case by case basis.
 
CJ

I start at 57% L&R and then adjust accordingly. Sometimes I will bring them closer for a lead, or if there is a doubled acoustic track and put them about 35% L&R. Still adjust accordingly. Separation is a key in all of the mixing. I still have to work at it based on each individual song. 57% L&R is usually my starting point though. 

I record two signals for my guitars. An amped and a clean sound. I use and amp sim on the clean guitar.  I usually start out about 70%L and 90%L with the brighter of the two parts at 90%L. I record the right side the same way. That's still not a rule though. Sometimes the parts are totally different and I may pan each part with that general panning with the lower rhythm on the inside and the higher rhythm on the outside. It depends what your doing really. Never go in with set ideas or you just end up settling sometimes.

Yeah, I clone and pan often. I usually just set the sim and/or other effects/EQ a little different and I get my separation. Haus effect or a slight delay works too.

lol... I misspelled it Haus. HAAS IN THE HAUS, YA'LL! WOOT WOOT!!
 
Okay... that was bad. How does that expression go... I'll get me coat?

mattplaysguitar
I never use Haas. It's mono incompatibility makes it a waste of time I believe.

That's a tad extreme, I feel.
 
I would always listen in mono to check for unwanted side effects, as I do whether I'm using the Haas trick or not, but dismissing it entirely seems a little drastic.  Certainly use it carefully, but that is true of most effects or processes.
 
Combfiltering (which I guess is what you're referring to), and loss of high frequencies, when summing to mono, can be easily mitigated by using longer delay times, as they tend to translate better to mono.
 
Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, though.  It's benefits, such as more realistic panning and fattening tracks panned to extremes, surely mean it is a viable mixing strategy, if used judiciously.  Much like compression.  If used wrongly, it sounds terrible.  If used well, it is just what the track needs.

As always, it depends.  Upon the song, the gutiars, what part they play in the entire arrangement.
 
If you wide pan one of the interesting things to do is bring the lead guitar (if it is playing along to the rhythm from its pan setting all the way to the center.  It brings the focus to it (esp. in conjunction w/ vol) and mimics the visual of a lead guitarist stepping center stage, tho sonically he most likely isn't dragging his marshall stack to the center w/ him.
 
@

With tunes that have some complex technique involved, for acoustics I will record with one mic through one pre and a different mic through a different pre each with slightly different settings. Then I will nudge one slightly and pan to fit the balance of the song. I find the mic/pre coloration is helpful for getting a slightly different tone which helps with separating the sound as two different takes.
 
Years ago I would have double tracked possibly doing the same mic/pre technique. Sadly I'm finding the years adding up...
 
Regards,

Can't you just invert the phase of one of the tracks to deal with comb filtering?

Beepster
Can't you just invert the phase of one of the tracks to deal with comb filtering?

 
I would think not.
 
I suspect it would make the issue much worse. If you take 2 tracks (CLONED) and invert the phase on the second one and do not nudge them, the perfect alignment will result in total silence as one cancels the other. Now.... simply nudge one of them and you probably will have sound to one degree or another, really bad sound....essentially, the exact opposite of comb filtering.  Comb filtering is the result of certain frequencies that are out of phase to the point where they are canceling to one degree or another, the other while most of the frequencies are not canceled but are still, none the less affected to some degree. The higher frequencies are the most noticeably affected by this cancellation effect.
 
I have not looked in to this topic in great depth, BUT.... anytime you take 2 frequencies and combine them you automatically create new frequencies. You get beat and harmonic frequencies below, but mostly above the original frequency, as a result of the two you are combining. Take a guitar string.... tune the string to a note, then tune another string to that same note. As the two approach the same frequency, the two notes start to interact and a beat frequency is produced. We hear this as a pulsing sound that slows as the 2 frequencies become the same. So throw that into the mix of a song, because that is what is happening constantly in the 2 cloned tracks as the frequencies change..... and you get comb filtering of the frequencies.
 
I'm sure the math on this is absolutely fascinating.
 
By recording two unique takes of say an acoustic guitar track, the chance that anything will be exactly the same, even with the same notes and chord patterns being played, is fairly remote. Not impossible, just not as likely. It's still a good idea to check all mixes in mono for such issues.
 
My first paragraph is based on my understanding of phases, nudging, and frequencies. It's an easy concept to test. Simply clone an audio track but don't nudge it... reverse the phase on one.... play it... you should have no sound..... then nudge one of them a few ticks and play it again. See what comes out of the speakers. I don't think you will be getting a full spectrum sound.... next time I'm in the studio I will do this myself just to check it.
 
just for grins, I looked at a few things.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_interference#Constructive_and_destructive_interference  this may or may not help to explain the comb filtering and why it occurs. In audio we call it by that name, but it exists in any thing that emits waves of any kind. we are simply operating on the very low end of the spectrum.... and check out the math on that page.... wow....!

There is a short demo and discussion of Haas effect http://www.fabfilter.com/video @ 5:40 in the FabFilter Timeless 2 - Tips & Tricks part 2 video including how to mitigate comb filter (i.e. turn down the delayed channel). While all the videos feature their Fab effects, the videos are useful technique tutorials.