Elvenking71
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Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
Someone help me dispel whatever the heck is going on in my project. Okay, I have a vocal in a Mono track. I have three sends assigned on this track and they are all set to 'Post'. (One for parallel SSL compressor, and one for reverb, and one direct) Alone...the track pans brilliantly. Sent to a single bus...pans fine. The problem comes in when I route the output of the three sends buses to another bus (for providing a single fader for the vocal sends). At some point, I lose the ability to pan the track at all and strange anomalies appear all over the place. Some so nothing at all but reduce level of sound, others will completely fade the vocal when panned left, and open it up when panned right. Have I found a bug? I have played with pre\post sends, stereo\mono bus interleave, and I cannot find joy. How are parallel effects (outside using the prochannel) achieved in Sonar? Why do I lose panning on a Mono track. I just want to parallel effects with the direct signal.
I will settle for the things that can affect my ability to pan and\or what to look for. I don't need a full signal path refresher, I have a image hanging above my desk. What kills the ability to pan? I figure no matter what...if I am on the last pan in the chain, and that is the bus output...NOTHING should stop it from panning. WTH?
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Anderton
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 14:52:31
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Elvenking71
The problem comes in when I route the output of the three sends buses to another bus (for providing a single fader for the vocal sends).
I'm sure there's a way to fix the issue using buses, mono interleaves, etc. but...wouldn't it be easier just to group the three sends so moving one fader moved them all?
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 16:02:14
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I could probably do something like that but I don't think it solves the fact that Cakewalk and Sonar lie about how the sends work. Or they are very incomplete about it. I have a map of the signal chain...and SONAR does not obey it. As far as I can see...not a soul on the internet or from cakewalk can unravel the mysteries. THis is aggervating and beginning to push me towards software where this is possible. Things like parallel compression are pretty well needed. (And without using prochannel). As far as I can see....the buses and sends are filled with bugs!!
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 16:02:25
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I could probably do something like that but I don't think it solves the fact that Cakewalk and Sonar lie about how the sends work. Or they are very incomplete about it. I have a map of the signal chain...and SONAR does not obey it. As far as I can see...not a soul on the internet or from cakewalk can unravel the mysteries. This is aggravating and beginning to push me towards software where this is possible. Things like parallel compression are pretty well needed. (And without using prochannel). As far as I can see....the buses and sends are filled with bugs!! The output pans on a Bus should work...period...right? Are the send pans supposed to do anything...they do not!! Pans are a sad broken story in Sonar. You can adjust the pan on a send all day and it flat does nothing at all. I have tried every pan along the chain and none of them PAN! My next measure is to clone the track and hit two tracks with FX. But I thought Sends in Pans worked in Sonar.
post edited by Elvenking71 - 2016/04/26 16:25:50
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mettelus
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 16:12:35
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Not sure if I understood your situation correctly, but SONAR will accommodate the FX used. I do not know of a mono reverb, so I am assuming SONAR interprets the chain after that reverb is included as stereo.
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 16:20:07
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Okay...I think I found something new. I am using the Mono SSL Compressor in a bus...so since it is a mono track I selected the mono version of it. Blam....I'm screwed right at that point. To put a cherry on that little discovery, if you turn the effect off to see if it was the effect....that won;t tell you. You have to delete the effect then the panning obeys again.
So I thought that panning would work the same way as on a track. No go on buses. Adding FX that are mono will kill the ability to pan on a bus evidently. Not sure why that behavior is necessary...I mean...let me pan no matter what. I feel that without exception...the pan on the main bus output should...well....pan.....all the time.
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John T
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 16:42:55
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Once the signal passes through a mono processor on a bus, there's no stereo position information. Remember that it's the source track that is panned; the bus itself knows nothing about that position.
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John T
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 16:43:45
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I would guess that the insertion of a mono effect is also changing the bus interleave, though I've not checked that.
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 16:45:02
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mettelus
Not sure if I understood your situation correctly, but SONAR will accommodate the FX used. I do not know of a mono reverb, so I am assuming SONAR interprets the chain after that reverb is included as stereo.
I am not sure what you mean by 'accomodate the FX' but... Yeah...it is certainly around the FX I am using. I just started using parallel techniques so it is the first time I am routing single mono signals to buses and trying to pan them for some odd reason. I had turned the effect off multiple times to rule it out., but I had to delete it to correct the panning issue. Added the stereo SSL Comp...no probs. I want the time in my life back, but I will settle for the wisdom. HA!
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 16:47:59
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John T
Once the signal passes through a mono processor on a bus, there's no stereo position information. Remember that it's the source track that is panned; the bus itself knows nothing about that position.
Stereo information or not, why would a pan not work on the output of the bus no matter what effect I had in the bin? There seem to be different rules around panning when it comes to buses and tracks. Never had a track I couldn't pan. Buses seem to be more particular.
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 16:50:17
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John T
I would guess that the insertion of a mono effect is also changing the bus interleave, though I've not checked that.
My guess is that the FX override the Interleave...I was changing those with no results while the Mono FX (SSL Comp) was in there. I can change the interleave but it has no effect.
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 17:05:18
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Man I tell you, there is nothing like having a technical issue when you are trying to be creative. If I want stereo effect OR Pan-ability, use stereo effects.
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John T
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 17:06:39
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☼ Best Answerby Elvenking71 2016/04/27 00:38:08
Elvenking71
John T
Once the signal passes through a mono processor on a bus, there's no stereo position information. Remember that it's the source track that is panned; the bus itself knows nothing about that position.
Stereo information or not, why would a pan not work on the output of the bus no matter what effect I had in the bin? There seem to be different rules around panning when it comes to buses and tracks. Never had a track I couldn't pan. Buses seem to be more particular.
Well, as the incoming signals work their way through the effects in the bus, they hit the mono effect. Now, those incoming signals could be panned differently. You could have one thing on the left, one thing on the right, something down the middle, whatever. Once those signals hit a mono effect, they can't be positioned differently. The effect doesn't handle that. All it has is one mono output.
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 17:14:58
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John T
Elvenking71
John T
Once the signal passes through a mono processor on a bus, there's no stereo position information. Remember that it's the source track that is panned; the bus itself knows nothing about that position.
Stereo information or not, why would a pan not work on the output of the bus no matter what effect I had in the bin? There seem to be different rules around panning when it comes to buses and tracks. Never had a track I couldn't pan. Buses seem to be more particular.
Well, as the incoming signals work their way through the effects in the bus, they hit the mono effect.
Now, those incoming signals could be panned differently. You could have one thing on the left, one thing on the right, something down the middle, whatever.
Once those signals hit a mono effect, they can't be positioned differently. The effect doesn't handle that. All it has is one mono output.
Thank you for taking the time to explain!! :) My question is how does the mono output of the effect get routed into a stereo bus and then not have an ability to pan. Does it actually change the nature of the bus. My initial thought is ...well why doesn't it just pan it like it happens in a mono track. Why does the stereo track think there is no way to pan by simply lowering the channel its panning away from. Is the bus now made a "mono bus' technically by the nature of the FX in the bin?...(even though i thought there were no mono buses in Sonar)
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John T
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 17:17:46
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The pan control in a stereo track or bus doesn't work in the same way as on a mono track.
On a mono track, the pan control dictates what its position in the stereo field of its destination bus is.
On any type of stereo track or bus, the pan control works more like the "balance" control on a hi fi. Moving to the left turns down the right channel, moving right turns down the left channel.
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 17:25:56
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John T
The pan control in a stereo track or bus doesn't work in the same way as on a mono track.
On a mono track, the pan control dictates what its position in the stereo field of its destination bus is.
On any type of stereo track or bus, the pan control works more like the "balance" control on a hi fi. Moving to the left turns down the right channel, moving right turns down the left channel.
The only thing confusing I have with what you say is this. We are always auditioning the signals through left and right channels. Where does that concept go on the Mono bus. Are we really just dealing with a single output there...or a mono signal that is divided between two channels rendering the pan uneeded? See what i mean...there is always a concept of L and R...I never just have one speaker in front of me. I guess I am a fan of never losing the concept of stereo no matter what since we always listen to L and R
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chuckebaby
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 17:32:34
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☄ Helpfulby Elvenking71 2016/04/26 18:35:41
Elvenking71
John T
The pan control in a stereo track or bus doesn't work in the same way as on a mono track.
On a mono track, the pan control dictates what its position in the stereo field of its destination bus is.
On any type of stereo track or bus, the pan control works more like the "balance" control on a hi fi. Moving to the left turns down the right channel, moving right turns down the left channel.
I guess I am a fan of never losing the concept of stereo no matter what since we always listen to L and R
we all are man :-) but routing / going from stereo to mon, exc can only do so much. this is not just Sonar either, the same thing happens to me using an analog desk as well. that's just the way a signal path works
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John T
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 17:32:43
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☄ Helpfulby Elvenking71 2016/04/26 18:35:22
No, it's still a stereo bus, but after the mono effect, it contains no stereo information. Everything up to that point is now summed to mono by that effect.
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 17:48:00
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2016/04/26 18:58:04
John T
No, it's still a stereo bus, but after the mono effect, it contains no stereo information. Everything up to that point is now summed to mono by that effect.
Okay....well-explained and thank you again. I get it I get it. It's an emulation of real outboard stuff. THAT makes sense and I can accept. (As if I had a choice...ha!) Like I said.....wisdom is the prize here. Thanks again all who contributed!!
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 20:50:05
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I had to delete the Bus in the project I was working in, I couldn't ever get it to pan again. Only if I created a new Bus. How does a bus become corrupt is the question. I was moving pans all the way up the signal path with NOTHING WAS PANNING. Gahhhdd...so frustrating!! JUST WANT TO FRIGGIN PAN!!!!!!!!!!! LET ME PAN...put a button in that says override BS and PAN!!!! PAN!!!!! With no FX in the chain...how the hell do I not get a pan??? LOL...I put the Mono Compressor back in on the bus...I could pan it then...so everything I thought I learned...doesn't apply.. Does anyone have any valid information on Sends that describes how this is supposed to work? Stereo FX...mono FX all pan on a new bus. Can something happen to my old bus...is it buggy? The incredible lack of consistency in how this operates is enough to make you doubt your signal path. I think there are bugs in the sends for sure!
post edited by Elvenking71 - 2016/04/26 21:21:13
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John T
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 21:01:38
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All the information you need is in this thread. Honestly, relax and step back from it for the evening. I mean no offence by this, but what's happening is this: you are not grasping a few key concepts, and you are hammering away to no avail. Sleep on it. It's not rocket science, but it *is* a bit counter-intuitive. Most importantly this: abandon how you think it *should* work, and start getting with how it *does* work.
post edited by John T - 2016/04/26 21:24:08
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 21:08:12
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John T
Yes, all the information you need is in this thread.
Honestly, relax and step back from it for the evening. I mean no offence by this, but what's happening is this: you are not grasping a few key concepts, and you are hammering away to no avail. Sleep on it. It's not rocket science, but it *is* a bit counter-intuitive.
Most importantly this: abandon how you think it *should* work, and start getting with how it *does* work.
What source of information will school me on how it does work. I had two buses side by side. I could route to one and it was panning....switched to the bus I had before (both with no effects) and that bus won't pan. All else the same. Where can I become so enlightened. What I thought I understood, I don't. I am seeing two different behaviors from what appears to be identical buses. They match picture perfect.
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John T
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 21:10:35
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Elvenking71
What I thought I understood, I don't.
Again, no offence intended, but I think that's what I just said. Buses don't pan. Get that out of your head first and foremost. Signals into buses can have a pan position. Buses cannot.
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John T
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 21:11:39
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Have you removed your mono effects from your buses?
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 21:18:18
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John T
Have you removed your mono effects from your buses?
I removed every effect from the track and all buses. It still would not pan. Getting a strange effect where you pan to the one direction and it will pan completely out and the other all the way in. As if it is really only coming through one channel. Yes...the vocal track is mono...okay. But I deleted the bus...added another...then it worked the way I thought it would. Like the bus I am trying to use is screwed up somehow and cannot be recovered. I have to rebuild the send and bus chain...and it looks like that will work. Threw a reverb on there just to be sure....that panned too...unlike before.
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Anderton
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 21:18:54
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I created an FX Chain that does what you want by creating a separate panpot for each channel of a stereo track. Then you just leave the balance control centered and do your panning with the FX Chain. See Week 73 in the "Friday's Tip of the Week" thread.
Note that when you deleted the bus and added another, the new bus's default setting may have been different from the bus it replaced, hence giving different results.
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 21:37:22
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Are there bus settings that are in visible from the console you? I had the buses side-by-side and they appear exactly identical.
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Anderton
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 21:57:59
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Well, we don't necessarily know what's upstream or downstream from the buses. I'm not discounting there couldn't be some kind of corner case corruption, but I don't recall anyone having this problem before. If it was truly a bug, you think it would show up with some regularity unless people don't use buses.
You can always try posting your project using Dropbox or whatever and see if people experience the same issues you do.
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/26 22:09:12
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Well since rebuilding the sends and buses fixed it, I guess I am okay. I'll keep an eye out. Worrisome that I could lose control of a chain though.
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Elvenking71
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Re: Pans Do Nothing In Send Chain
2016/04/27 00:21:12
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Yes. I rebuilt the chain and all is as I thought it should work. Something of an anomaly occurred I guess. Unless there are secret settings getting set on my buses that I cannot see on the console. It was the strangest thing I have ever seen and I have used Sonar since 6. Never ever had a problem so I thought for sure it had to be something I didn't see. I think it may have been a genuine fluke of some sort.
post edited by Elvenking71 - 2016/04/27 03:57:58
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