RedSkyRoad
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Pattern "painting" could be way better
Ok, so I've got a 4 beat pattern that I want to "paint" but it created a single new long pattern instead of separate linked patterns of 4 beats following each other. If it only drags out the midi, then the whole concept is totally flawed!!! What is the quick way of "painting"64 bars of 4-beat-linked-patterns? The reason it needs to be linked is so that if I need to change something subtle in the pattern, ALL the copies need to change as well... I find the workflow of the MIDI extremely limiting...
post edited by RedSkyRoad - 2016/07/29 12:42:41
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BobF
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/27 15:08:56
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Copy the 4 beat clip with CTRL-C. Paste "Special" with CTRL-ALT-V Enter the number of repetitions you want. It has to be more than one to reveal "Linked Repetitions" in the next step. Click advanced in the dialog to reveal "Linked Repetitions". Check that along with "Link to Original Clip(s)" and click OK. The linked clips will have a frame that distinguishes them from regular and Groove Clip clips. Now when you edit the original, the changes follow in the linked copies. 
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Anderton
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/27 17:55:58
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Pattern painting does what it's supposed to do; it's not the right tool for what you want. BobF describes how to do what you want. Also note that when you view linked clips in the PRV, you can see how changing one note makes the same changes in the entire set of linked clips.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/27 19:59:09
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the tool works you just needs to be precise when making selections. select the content in PRV/TV then start painting exactly where you want the notes to start. See this section (1 minute and 44 seconds) of the video:https://youtu.be/Xfl_NfGMoS0?t=1m44s but with this being explained.... using the paint tool for 64 bars is like using a paint brush to paint the Empire state building. it can be done but will take a long time. Bob laid out in detail the same way I use tools when approaching such editing.
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RedSkyRoad
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/27 22:43:58
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Conclusion : It's not gonna happen by selecting the clip and dragging the mouse from left to right to get separate patterns? BobF
Copy the 4 beat clip with CTRL-C. Paste "Special" with CTRL-ALT-V
Enter the number of repetitions you want. It has to be more than one to reveal "Linked Repetitions" in the next step.
Click advanced in the dialog to reveal "Linked Repetitions". Check that along with "Link to Original Clip(s)" and click OK. The linked clips will have a frame that distinguishes them from regular and Groove Clip clips.
Now when you edit the original, the changes follow in the linked copies.
This is not what I want to do...
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RedSkyRoad
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/27 22:46:38
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chuckebaby
the tool works you just needs to be precise when making selections.
select the content in PRV/TV then start painting exactly where you want the notes to start.
See this section (1 minute and 44 seconds) of the video:
https://youtu.be/Xfl_NfGMoS0?t=1m44s
but with this being explained.... using the paint tool for 64 bars is like using a paint brush to paint the Empire state building. it can be done but will take a long time.
Bob laid out in detail the same way I use tools when approaching such editing.
If I want to lay down a kick, hats, or clap pattern, "painting" the patterns from left to right with a single stroke is the logical way to do this. I'm just used to the superior MIDI workflow of FL Studio. SONAR is completely focused on live recording artists, and not EDM producers that work exclusively with MIDI and VST
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chuckebaby
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 06:31:26
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im sorry I disagree. copy/paste is the logical way. if it were 8 bars...maybe even 16 bars I would agree. but not 64. The method Bob posted above really is the best way to approach this, even more its a very handy feature. long time ago I used to just copy/paste and drag. when I found out about paste "Special" it was like a light shined threw my window. I hope that same lights shines threw yours. RedSkyRoad
I'm just used to the superior MIDI workflow of FL Studio. SONAR is completely focused on live recording artists, and not EDM producers that work exclusively with MIDI and VST
If FL studio was that Awesome, you wouldn't be here using Sonar  Been there done that with Pro Tools.
post edited by chuckebaby - 2016/07/28 06:55:56
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 07:01:38
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RedSkyRoad
Conclusion : It's not gonna happen by selecting the clip and dragging the mouse from left to right to get separate patterns?BobF
Copy the 4 beat clip with CTRL-C. Paste "Special" with CTRL-ALT-V
Enter the number of repetitions you want. It has to be more than one to reveal "Linked Repetitions" in the next step.
Click advanced in the dialog to reveal "Linked Repetitions". Check that along with "Link to Original Clip(s)" and click OK. The linked clips will have a frame that distinguishes them from regular and Groove Clip clips.
Now when you edit the original, the changes follow in the linked copies.
This is not what I want to do...
Hate to disagree, but this is EXACTLY what you want to do. The paint tool is not for this type of work, as has already been explained earlier. This method will do what you want 100%
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dcumpian
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 08:13:57
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Sonar doesn't care what kind of music you are doing, even EDM. You have to use the tools that are provided, make feature requests for enhancements with detailed "how it should work", and/or use another DAW that works the way you want to. That's really about it.
I've never found Sonar to limit my creativity.
Regards,
Dan
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John Joseph [Cakewalk]
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 10:15:12
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Personally, I could see the utility of allowing the creation of linked patterns by using the pattern tool with some modifier key... but I'm pretty sure the reason the pattern tool doesn't paint linked clips right now is because you aren't actually painting repetitions, you're painting the pattern. We allow that pattern to be transposed with the shift modifier, but a transposed pattern can't be linked to the original because they contain different notes. What we'd have to do is link the interval s between successive notes in the pattern, which doesn't seem impossible...
post edited by John Joseph [Cakewalk] - 2016/07/28 10:37:22
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brundlefly
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 10:17:39
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☄ Helpfulby Anderton 2016/07/28 13:40:30
Another option is to right-click and convert regular MIDI clips to Step Sequencer clips, and then roll out the copies in the track view. Unlike Groove Clips and painted copies, the iterations of a Step Sequencer clip are linked so that edits in one will affect all.
The shortcomings of this approach are that have to do the editing in the Step Sequencer view instead of the PRV which works well for drum patterns, but not so well for instruments with extended durations.
If you want to edit in the PRV, pasting linked copies is the best approach. If you don't like using the paste dialog, you can enabled Copy Entire Clips as Linked Clips in Preferences > Editing, and then Ctrl+Drag copies with snap enabled to create linked iterations. But you'll have to release the mouse after each copy. and you'll have to do the copying in TV; drag-copying in the PRV won't created separate linked clips.
And finally, you could use Groove Clips, but like painting, the copies are independent so you would have to roll back and re-roll out the copies in the TV if you make a change that you want to affect all copies.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 10:22:55
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John Joseph [Cakewalk]
Personally, I could see the utility of allowing the creation of linked patterns by using the pattern tool with some modifier key... but I'm pretty sure the reason the pattern tool doesn't paint linked clips right now is because you aren't actually painting repetitions, you're painting the pattern.
What that means is you could paint the same pattern starting on a different key than the original (preserving intervals between notes in the pattern), which is probably a feature people like. However in that case the "repetitions" can't be tied together because they are actually a different sequence of notes.
What we'd have to do is link the interval s between successive notes in the pattern, which doesn't seem impossible...
once I realize the paint tools strengths, ive been able to utilize it to the best of its ability's. For example, Melody lines, small runs, scale patterns. the thing I find most handy about it is, in certain music jandra's there are repetitive "type" melodies. by saving paint tool presets. you can use these same runs on future projects IE- Drum rolls, Piano fills, exc.
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BobF
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 10:23:16
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☄ Helpfulby Anderton 2016/07/28 13:40:36
brundlefly
...
And finally, you could use Groove Clips, but like painting, the copies are independent so you would have to roll back and re-roll out the copies in the TV if you make a change that you want to affect all copies.
You know, depending on many separate tweaks you do, this could actually be quite quick and painless. As far as enhancements go, having a groove clip option to create linked copies without the need to unroll/reroll would prolly satisfy 99% of the cases.
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RedSkyRoad
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 12:02:33
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chuckebaby
im sorry I disagree. copy/paste is the logical way.
if it were 8 bars...maybe even 16 bars I would agree.
but not 64. The method Bob posted above really is the best way to approach this,
even more its a very handy feature.
long time ago I used to just copy/paste and drag.
when I found out about paste "Special" it was like a light shined threw my window.
I hope that same lights shines threw yours.
RedSkyRoad
I'm just used to the superior MIDI workflow of FL Studio. SONAR is completely focused on live recording artists, and not EDM producers that work exclusively with MIDI and VST
If FL studio was that Awesome, you wouldn't be here using Sonar
Been there done that with Pro Tools.
The ONLY reason I'm not using FL Studio and SONAR instead is because 1) of the multithreading SONAR has a leg up on FL studio and 2) the sound is clearer...
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RedSkyRoad
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 12:17:41
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brundlefly
Another option is to right-click and convert regular MIDI clips to Step Sequencer clips, and then roll out the copies in the track view. Unlike Groove Clips and painted copies, the iterations of a Step Sequencer clip are linked so that edits in one will affect all.
What do you mean with Roll-Out. I don't understand how to paint the Step Sequencer pattern
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RedSkyRoad
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 12:29:00
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Can someone please suggest me a PROPER MIDI-capabilities video tutorial because I have clearly used SONAR way to long ago...
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icontakt
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 12:39:08
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BobF
As far as enhancements go, having a groove clip option to create linked copies without the need to unroll/reroll would prolly satisfy 99% of the cases.
Ditto.
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Anderton
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 13:38:06
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☄ Helpfulby RedSkyRoad 2016/07/28 14:09:04
RedSkyRoad
If I want to lay down a kick, hats, or clap pattern, "painting" the patterns from left to right with a single stroke is the logical way to do this. I think the problem is that you want to have a single pattern, but have it be treated as a collection of individual linked patterns. SONAR can do one or the other, but the Paint tool is designed to create a single pattern, not individual linked patterns. Although I can see the value of that, using the paste special option does what you want. While definitely not as seamless as grabbing a paint tool, as compensation it's more flexible because of the ability to specify a starting point, whether to merge with existing data or not, etc. So for example, suppose you had 64-measure MIDI clip with the perfect drum part, except you want the kick to be different in the second 32 measures. After erasing those kicks, you could create a 1 measure clip with just the new kick part and have it hit 32 measures into the part and last for another 32 measures. The other option is to use the find/replace dialog to change a repeating element in a long clip. The tip for Week #79 in Friday's Tip of the Week talks about the find/replace dialog. As to EDM suitability, SONAR was actually ahead of the curve in terms of audio; it had REX file tools that were way better than what existed at the time (even from Propellerheads), and remains the only program other than Acid Pro that can create, edit, and export stretchable "acidized" files. SONAR also licensed a high-quality, offline transposition algorithm from iZotope to do the equivalent of "harmonic matching." However the MIDI elements were designed before EDM became as popular as it did later. So, more recent programs include ways to streamline common EDM-related MIDI operations, but in the process often sacrifice suitability for other MIDI applications. SONAR can almost always do what you want do, but may require taking a different route to get there.
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RedSkyRoad
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 13:50:35
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Thanks. I've made peace with the paste-special dialog and will have to get use to it...
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 14:48:25
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☄ Helpfulby RedSkyRoad 2016/07/29 12:14:39
Having sat next to skilled EDM producers using FL Studio I have to agree with the OP that that toolset is WAY quicker and more efficient using "painting" style tools over copy/paste dialogs. Really. There is a thread of mine here requesting tips for a similar workflow in Sonar but you can't have it, really. With all due respect to the various tips and workarounds offered here, it seems to me the people who are "defending" Sonar in this respect probably don't have first hand experience with this workflow in FL.
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BobF
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 15:02:24
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Sanderxpander
Having sat next to skilled EDM producers using FL Studio I have to agree with the OP that that toolset is WAY quicker and more efficient using "painting" style tools over copy/paste dialogs. Really. There is a thread of mine here requesting tips for a similar workflow in Sonar but you can't have it, really. With all due respect to the various tips and workarounds offered here, it seems to me the people who are "defending" Sonar in this respect probably don't have first hand experience with this workflow in FL.
I'm not sure anybody was "defending" Sonar. We try to help people find ways to get things done. That's not defending Sonar. That's trying to help a brother or sister musician get what's in their head into their project.
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dcumpian
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 15:03:12
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Sanderxpander
Having sat next to skilled EDM producers using FL Studio I have to agree with the OP that that toolset is WAY quicker and more efficient using "painting" style tools over copy/paste dialogs. Really. There is a thread of mine here requesting tips for a similar workflow in Sonar but you can't have it, really. With all due respect to the various tips and workarounds offered here, it seems to me the people who are "defending" Sonar in this respect probably don't have first hand experience with this workflow in FL.
You can use more than one DAW. If Sonar gives you better mixing capabilities than FL, then rewire FL into Sonar and you get the best of both. Don't forget to add a feature request for what you perceive as missing functionality in Sonar though. Who knows, someday you might be surprised by what comes in an update. Regards, Dan
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 15:18:58
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I didn't in turn mean that to be an attack. But I saw a few comments in the spirit of "Sonar is fine for EDM if you know how to use it". Obviously in response to the OP's complaints. I just happen to know what he means and FL is actually superior in this regard. For months I have been on the brink of buying it because of its elegance in pattern building.
I agree you can have more than one DAW. I also have Ableton, Maschine, Reaper, Sibelius and Notion (ok technically not all of them really DAWs). For most things I prefer Sonar, for many reasons. Pattern building is not amongst them :)
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BobF
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 15:24:25
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I've been kicking around the idea of picking up a copy of FL. I wonder how well it rewires as mentioned above.
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Anderton
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 19:21:32
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Sanderxpander
I didn't in turn mean that to be an attack. But I saw a few comments in the spirit of "Sonar is fine for EDM if you know how to use it". Well...I'm not sure everyone involved in this discussion knows the following. Although you don't have as many options as when copying (e.g., you can't choose to copy into an existing pattern) I think the following does exactly what the OP wants, with the only difference being that you need to create your pattern in the Step Sequencer (which has its own advantages anyway) and not the PRV: 1. Create your pattern in the step sequencer (this creates a clip in the track view). 2. In track view, click-drag the clip edge to roll the clip out for as many iterations as you want (note that the Step Sequencer will still be available in the dock). You don't have to convert to a clip, convert to a groove clip, or anything. Just roll the sucker out. 3. Any edit you now make in the step sequencer will be reflected automatically in all the iterations you rolled out, just as if all the iterations were linked. You don't have to roll the iterations back in or change anything, just access the step sequencer and make your edit. Even better...suppose you're not a fan of cookie-cutter repetition, so you want to make changes in some parts of the sequence, but not others. You can then bounce what you have to itself, create a clip, and edit it in the PRV, or convert the longer clip into a longer step sequencer pattern. I get the sense that the step sequencer's humanizing and editing capabilities are underappreciated because it's assumed SONAR's step sequencer works like most other step sequencers. However once you dig into what happens when you expand a row, it's pretty amazing. But there's another point worth mentioning. Not all EDM is MIDI-based; my heritage is the MPC sample-based mentality that existed long before virtual instruments. Although there are programs that may have "better MIDI workflow for EDM" than SONAR, where many (most?) of them fall down is the audio workflow for EDM. For that type of work, I greatly prefer SONAR, and MIDI techniques like the one above can be found with a little digging. What I find confusing about comments like "this or that program is great for EDM" is that in my experience, the programs that are referenced are good for a specific EDM workflow around which the program is optimized. That's fine and makes a lot of sense from a design standpoint (which is why I use Live for live performance), but it can preclude a more general-purpose approach that allows going beyond the boundaries of the program's design philosophy. For many people that may not be necessary, but for others, it is. For example it was really interesting to see how Ilan Bluestone creates his EDM projects in SONAR when he gave a workshop with Jimmy Landry at the 2015 GearFest. SONAR was able to accommodate the unique workflow he uses; I'm not sure what other program could. Same situation with me...
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Anderton
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/28 21:34:10
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I want to add one more thing about all DAWs, and please, no one should be offended by this. The title - "Pattern Painting Flawed" - epitomizes many peoples' problems with whatever DAW they use: they approach a feature with an expectation of what it will do, and when that expectation isn't met, they conclude there's a problem or that it's flawed. People often ask how I manage to keep coming up with the various applications for "Friday's Tip of the Week." It's because I remove expectations when approaching a feature; the feature is what it is, and needs to be accepted and especially, understood for what it actually is. That's why when I see a feature called "Loop Construction View" I see a way to create a perfect emulation of tape-based varispeed, or an analog step sequencer, or a way to mutate tambourine parts into electro-worthy percussion loops. That doesn't make me fabulous or anything; it just makes me someone who accepts something as it is, probes what it does, and can then proceed to make the most out of what it actually is. It's not a bad idea to take this approach with people, either, but that's a whole other topic 
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/29 01:55:12
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☄ Helpfulby RedSkyRoad 2016/07/29 12:38:57
Agreed, Craig, and I'm with Sonar for a reason.
The step sequencer approach you mention is closest to FL, but not quite. In FL you can easily paint just a kick, just a snare or just a hihat, all visible from the same step sequencer even though each will be on its own track. If you could find a way to do this in Sonar you'd make my day.
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JoseC.
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/29 04:02:14
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AFAIK, FL is a pattern based sequencer, Sonar is not. I think that misunderstanding this is where all that "flawed workflow" nonsense comes from. It is like thinking that a nailgun is a flawed hammer while trying to drive nails with the handle...or that a hammer is a flawed nailgun.
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BobF
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/29 09:04:47
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JoseC.
AFAIK, FL is a pattern based sequencer, Sonar is not. I think that misunderstanding this is where all that "flawed workflow" nonsense comes from. It is like thinking that a nailgun is a flawed hammer while trying to drive nails with the handle...or that a hammer is a flawed nailgun.
I like that. I can think of ways to use that such as, "... well, that's a perfect example of a flawed hammer problem." Will you require attribution for each use? 
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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JoseC.
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Re: Pattern "painting" flawed
2016/07/29 09:33:31
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BobF
I like that. I can think of ways to use that such as, "... well, that's a perfect example of a flawed hammer problem."
Will you require attribution for each use?
No, be my guest :)
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