BenMMusTech
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Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
Here is what Paul Frindle says about my theory. I am wrong but I am right and even he is confused about the whole concept. You see in the top of this post, frindle says, as Jeff has pointed out that it was him who propigated the myth of recoding hot but he also says that he also sugested what I do which once it's in the box use the trim to mix:
Ok - this has become controversial and discussions about this have raged for years - and I feel that it's largely my fault :-(.
I originally presented the idea that operating at absolute max levels was one of the major reasons people obtained worse results ITB in comparison to analogue systems.
The primary reason for this IMVHO was a workflow issue, in that almost anything you did (apart from moving a fader down) resulted in higher peak levels - which would put on red lights and involve you in messing up your balance permanently to put them back out again.
Think EQing a track in the mix - the red light comes on (even if you've cut something) - so you have to reduce it - so it's now quieter in the mix and has messed up your balance and drastically interferes with your artistic instincts etc.. Are you really going to reduce the levels of every other track in your mix by the exact same amount to get back your original balance? Not likely :-(
All of this could be avoided by reducing your levels (with a trim plug at the head of your mix channel if required) and carrying on with the mixing without the distraction - much as analogue systems always did.
Analogue systems had headroom above max operating levels for a good reason, which the digital community growing from HD samplers and editors had entirely missed :-)
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As simple as this might seem, the discussion has ballooned and been made confusing again. I could never have predicted the bombshell response this simple idea provoked :-(
For starters people would not accept that simple things like cutting some range of freqs or rolling off the extreme LF could increase level. So I posted some examples this and other things such as intersample peaking in some plug-ins even if the response does not change. Showing that if you are aiming for max modulation through your mix and trying to get the loudest possible result - all this stuff got in the way.
Then people objected to reducing level as a concept - because they wrongly assumed (and had even been taught) that doing so would 'reduce their bits' and produce distortion!! This was the fall out from the widespread marketing mis-use ot the term 'resolution'. So this resulted in me doing scores of posts basically trying to get people to actually gain an understanding about sampling theory in layman's terms, i.e. trying to undo one of the biggest myths in the industry :-(
Other discussions widened the issue further and got completely off track - for instance the floating point 'it can't clip' guys missed the point entirely.
Also people artificially widened it to analogue operating levels (which was not what I was saying in the first place), ADCs and DACs as well - rightly arguing that running analogue outboard stuff at lower levels could result in not being able to get the effects (analogue distortion) they were after. So this resulted in scores of posts about converters, their input/output levels, their max output levels (sometimes insufficient) and so on and so forth - endlessly - not least of all since many people were trying to use consumer quality converters to drive pro analogue gear - and of course even pro converters are starting to cut corners these days.. Nightmare discussions that are still raging 3 years after, without even a hint of general widespread understanding still.
Then it transpired that engineers mixing on small OTB 'summing products' were actually clipping their DACs (sometime without even knowing due to inter-sample peaking) - mixing it OTB and flying it back into the digital domain again. A process that produced distortion of all kinds which was more important than the OTB mixer itself!! The cause of much of what the proponents of the summing boxes actually heard as an improvement. We even had amazing suggestions from people that computers may not be able to add up - a subject not even worth discussing, to anyone who just thinks about it for a single moment without the spin!! :-(
Then it transpired that some mastering engineers were actually doing this so they could use the ADCs as signal clippers - and increase the modulation levels (a secret weapon in the loudness wars)!
So what followed was scores of posts about the ways in which converters may (or may not) distort under these conditions - and then we find out that converter products are actually being selected depending on how they sound when deliberately over driven. At which point all bets are off - and any technical discussion becomes pointless :-(
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Ok to cut short the history of confusion opened up by a simple suggestion and get back to your question:
Because people could not bring themselves to reduce levels (the effing 'resolution' concept could not be cleansed out of their brains) - they started looking at plug-ins to ask the question as to whether or not they could be legally overdriven anyway, continuing to work 'correctly' even if the red lights were on - thereby conserving their precious notion (religion) of 'resolution'!!!!
Sorry if my frustration is showing through here - I am only human :-(
Now as completely irrlevant as this may be to the original argument - it is none the less complex, if you are hell bent on driving stuff over the limit and cannot be persuaded it's a bad idea and gets you absolutely nothing...
The problem is that whether a plug-in can or cannot stand this kind of thing depends on many factors including the process itself, the platform it's running on, what the platform may be externally connected to and so on. For anyone not understanding overload (let alone basic sampling theory) this is a nightmare of confusion.
I feel for the users, who after all should be able to work freely and artistically without messing with all this crap - i.e. my very original sentiment for reducing levels in the first place!! :-(. It makes me want to weep TBH.
In short my original intention in suggesting reduced levels and headroom had backfired completely. The marketing dis-information was so deeply ingrained and relentless that people were now required to be technically proficient (in ways no forum post could ever achieve), just to understand how to use things - that already had red lights and warnings aplenty. It was a totally impossible job for one person. This is an example of where knowledge gained by a whole industry from decades of design will follow us to the grave - because it has no place in the current marketing environment... It's a lost cause :-(
Anyway what is the bottom line (finally)?
Generally plug-ins running on a floating point environment can stand being overdriven (with some minimal loss of quality), providing the signals are not sent out to fixed point systems, like expansion processes (PT TDM, PowerCore) and interfaces DACs, CDs, SPDIFF, AES etc..
Plug-ins running in fixed point may stand being overdriven if the inputs are not themselves overdriven, they have internal headroom and they have output level controls to reduce the level before it's sent to the next process. This also applies to the RTAS plugs in a TDM system.
Plug-ins that have to have internal references to real world output levels (Dynamics, limiters, character plugs with distortion) may produce different results depending on absolute level whether in fixed point or floating systems (i.e the float does not take away the need for real level references). So it's very complex and application dependent in a great number of ways I could go into, but this post is long enough! :-) But it's a bad idea to trust overloading them...
The only horrible fly in the ointment is that since all of the plugs that need internal reference levels are designed to match full sample value level (the original default broken digital 'operating level' which has caused the whole problem), they may need to be modulated to full level internally to get the intended results..
For instance; our DSM has an output limiter set to catch sample value overs above max. If you like the sound of the limiter working hard you have to make sure that the rest of the process internally produces enough modulation to do it. It will then output full level automatically - which you may want to reduce to send on to the next process, if the DSM is not last in your signal chain..
I am so sorry for this long post - but I felt that I couldn't make sense of any reply to the question without refering to the original source of the whole debate.
So this is what Paul Frindle has to say on the topic, if someone can decipher some of it for me I'd be happy. Here is the link to the whole thread: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/542885-paul-frindle-truth-myth.html I haven't gone through the whole thing but I did find some interesting stuff about truncating harmonic distortion, which is what I was talking about and believed that it could be combated through recording hot, what is not clear from this thread is how to combat losing that harmonic content. What is also clear digital converters can be be driven and can be pleasing so recording hot could possibly add some form of digital harmonic distortion, or that is how I read it. Man, this thread show's how little we know about the digital recording process and how importent these discusions are!! I'm sticking with the hot theory because I tend to mix in Sonar as if it was an analog mixer, eg I use the trim pot and Esp if there is even half a chance of adding some kind of digital harmonic distortion that is pleasing to the ears, into my mix. Well enjoy, I will continue to analyse the thread over the coming days, they're are just too many pages!! Neb
post edited by BenMMusTech - 2012/05/04 00:24:01
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John T
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/04 06:13:45
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It's not that hard to decipher. He's saying that you shouldn't record hot to digital, but that it seems his advice on that has been misunderstood.
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DeeringAmps
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/04 12:18:05
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"It's not that hard to decipher. He's saying that you shouldn't record hot to digital, but that it seems his advice on that has been misunderstood"
+1 to that!
T
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM  RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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mixsit
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 17:16:02
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Wayne Smith Part time long time.. CathouseSound Mother Ships - StudioCat DAWs Portals - RME
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backwoods
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 17:28:45
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That is some interesting and epic reading in the 147 page thread!
Paul Frindle says that using VU meters in a DAW is a waste of time. Wonder what Jeff Evans would say to that?
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 17:34:27
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No he doesn't. I get the impression he says you can actually use VU meters in a DAW! Ben also thinks he says it is wise to record hot but in actual fact he is saying not to record hot. That thread is too long and is confusing to say the least. Avoid it at all costs. VU meters are great! How come they come standard on a brand new SSL console as we have just installed at our TAFE college and explain the fact that SSL are very into the VU meters and explain in detail how and when to use them. (In conjunction with a DAW that is)
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/05/06 17:36:07
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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backwoods
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 17:37:01
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"Your product is going to be digital - so why would anyone want a VU meter or dBU?! It will tell you nothing about the headroom and peak levels you have, because it's an averaging device and what it reads depends on the programme." That's what Mr Frindle stated Jeff. Hardly a glowing endorsement is it? You should go argue with him on Gearslutz! Tell him you have a new SSL console.
post edited by backwoods - 2012/05/06 17:38:24
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 17:44:34
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VU's tell you a lot about the average rms levels that are present on tracks, busses and your masterbuss. I agree it does not tell you about headroom but you know what the headroom is by working at a ref level eg -20 dB FS. So you have got 20 dB of headroom!
You need VU and peak meters, I have said that all along. In mastering situations they are invaluable for getting average rms levels of commercial recordings and knowing how much higher you have to go to match that etc. Peak meters will tell you nothing about that.
They are a very valuable addition to any DAW. I am certainly not going to stop using them just because this guy doesn't think they are useful.
I wonder how many productions this guy has put out and what his actual production skills are.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 18:00:01
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I have been thinking more now about the idea of using VU meters and setting your recording levels via RMS rather than peak. I think I really like the idea of all my tracks to be recorded to a nice standard such as -20dB RMS. Would be nice for mixing. Is it necessary? Hell no. I think this all comes down to a person's personal preference and workflow habits. I don't see any reason for there to be any quality difference, it's just purely down to how one person LIKES to work, in my opinion. Mastering is a different thing here and I can really see how important it could be for a good ME. Again, not critical, but could be very useful.
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backwoods
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 18:04:20
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"They are a very valuable addition to any DAW. I am certainly not going to stop using them just because this guy doesn't think they are useful. I wonder how many productions this guy has put out and what his actual production skills are." - Jeff Evans
He also says this about your beloved VU meters in the same thread Jeff "Something like a VU meter is not RMS, it's averaging - a bit like RMS but worse.."
Just keep telling yourself that he is a no-one Jeff and then you can safely ignore his opinions 
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 18:22:52
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Hi there backwoods I don't know much about this guy so any info would be welcome.
Matt it is a good idea in fact to keep your rms levels on tracks even and consistent. It seems to aid the mixing process very well. You will never have problems with tracks being too low to mix either because you have tracked them correctly in the first place. Your busses and masterbuss will be perfect level wise and you will never see a clip light anywhere!
One thing that many of you have not taken into account is the ballistics of the VU meter. This is basically how it dances to the music. A lot of very well mixed and mastered material seems to move them in a certain way, amateur productions tend to make them swing wildly in comparison. Interesting that because the reason they move well is because in the best studios they are present in the console usually and they are using them!
They are also fantastic for showing up a track that has something on it that is making the meter swing wildly. Easy to find in solo and correct often. No peak meter will tell you that information.
Also every mastering house on the planet basically has them (or another meter eg Dorrough to show a similar thing) Wonder why that is Backwoods! If they are so bad and stupid then that would not be the case. Have you thought of that. So you have got a million studios and mastering houses around the world that has them but Paul says they are no good! He reminds me a bit of Ben I think.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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backwoods
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 18:25:15
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 18:43:59
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Thanks backwoods for the link. I will check it out. Seems like he is an interesting guy. Does not mean what he says about VU's is true though, it's only his opinion remember that. I could point you to as many articles by as many equally experienced and even more knowledgable people than Paul that say VU's are in fact great! So who are you going to believe. I think it's good to see different sides to any approach and then take what you want from it and work in the way you are going to work. That is the real important issue. But at some point you have to leave the technical stuff behind and focus on the music. That post that Ben put up here on this thread at the start is also way too long. I just can be bothered reading all of it and for what! It is not going to change how I engineer and produce music. I am doing it right because I can survive at it and my clients are always very happy. But I must say I am a bit over detailed technical discussion on all these things. As I said in one of my recent posts to Ben it is all about the music and in the end one should really get down into that and spend most of your time in all that. If the music is boring no amount of technical jargon is going to make it better. But if the composition and the performance is great then you can almost record with anything in any way and you will get a great result. It transcends all the technical crap and by far.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/05/06 19:21:39
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 19:25:41
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If the music is boring no amount of technical jargon is going to make it better. But if the composition and the performance is great then you can almost record with anything in any way and you will get a great result. It transcends all the technical crap and by far. Quote of the year there my friend...well said. That's my simple way of thinking about this stuff. I'm more wrong than I am right about stuff scientifically speaking, but what you said above is what I live by and it sure works for me. -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 19:40:24
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Danny Danzi
If the music is boring no amount of technical jargon is going to make it better. But if the composition and the performance is great then you can almost record with anything in any way and you will get a great result. It transcends all the technical crap and by far.
Quote of the year there my friend...well said. That's my simple way of thinking about this stuff. I'm more wrong than I am right about stuff scientifically speaking, but what you said above is what I live by and it sure works for me.
-Danny
+1
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 19:43:14
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Your funnny man Jeff, all you do here on the techniques forum is pontificate and when someone puts up imperical evidence you take your bat and ball and go home!!! I wasn't going to bother, I've had my fun, we have learnt some stuff, what I found interesting and got me to post again is this comment: One thing that many of you have not taken into account is the ballistics of the VU meter. This is basically how it dances to the music. A lot of very well mixed and mastered material seems to move them in a certain way, amateur productions tend to make them swing wildly in comparison. Interesting that because the reason they move well is because in the best studios they are present in the console usually and they are using them! Jeff Evans
Well for one Jeff, a VCA VU meter is going to move a lot faster, than an opto compressor Vu meter and this is the case with a FET compressor, oh the humanity. So the VCA VU meter is going to dance pretty wildly as you put it. Well I have had my fun, Jeff, MrT and a few others have told me t0 go away and poop, or put up and I put up, we have three or four compelling aguments and only gut intution to go by. As I said 29 years to reach the pinicale of tape 34 years of digital and not one boffin has any clue!!!!, unless it's blue and Pro Tools!!! Ok I was just being silly with last remark. Danny and Jeff they make such a lovley school yard chums, you can see them now, pulling the wings off fly's, burning ants with mangnifying glasses. Yes Jeff has stated the obvious, which was my mantra way before his, he been to busy over here pontificating, the merits of VU meters, although KMeters are great but to sit there like some anal nerd and use them to check every channel, how much recording does Jeff actually get done on one session, I'd like to know!!! Man funny stuff, some of us have learnt stuff but it's true and if we look at Jeffs avatar, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. And I still win because in Jeffs signature, I am talking about ideas, so by proxy I am one of those great minds. Neb
post edited by BenMMusTech - 2012/05/06 19:45:26
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 20:02:59
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Danny and Jeff they make such a lovley school yard chums, you can see them now, pulling the wings off fly's, burning ants with mangnifying glasses. What's this Danny and Jeff stuff? You make it like I'm ganging up on you with Jeff. I've not made a mention of your name or quoted you in anything you have posted on this thread or any other thread. Jeff made a few comments that I agreed with. Is that so wrong? I didn't even question you or make a mention of stuff you said that I agree with or disagree with? Why must you always use my name like you're in some sort of competition with me? I don't bother anyone on here, why must you keep on messing with me? Please don't involve my name with anyone. I work alone and speak for myself only. Stop humoring yourself with your infinite wisdom. You have none and your ban should have been permanent. Guys like you and the drama you bring to the table don't do these forums any good. If anything, you chase away the people that are truly trying to make a difference why you spout for the sake of a voice. Don't fk with me Ben...forget I exist and go about your business of whatever it is you do. -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 20:16:53
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That sounds like a threat Danny!!!
What have I done???
Apart from point out the obvious, you and Jeff are usually in clousion I and turn it into a joke, I ask again what have I done.
Now there will be some who agree with you ban me for life, some would disagree with you and I have seen many who have said welcome back.
It's true I am a divisive personality but I pull my weight around this forum, I have brought interesting topics to the table, I have brought interesting information to the table and again people have thanked me.
I have tried to help people with their X1 problems and particualy their wirless controllers, for which I am one of the few people who have had very few problems with these controllers.
I ask again Danny what I have I done, I mean your threat!! I could report that couldn't I but I don't because I can play with the big boys, even when I was banned I made no threats to get banned!!!
Your postulating only confirms my joke!!
Neb
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 20:17:00
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Good point Ben about different types of VU meters. There are VU meters and then there are VU meters! Watch out using the VU's on your TL audio gear. They are not in the league of a serious expensive VU and also they are only showing you what is either coming or going from that particular piece of gear. They are not calibrated (to your DAW) either so they are not a lot of use.
I am talking fairly expensive to buy movements (that might set you back $200 each!) You can get them on ebay for less as I did. You also need decent electronics to drive them too and light them up! They need to be across the stereo buss usually. I use a digital mixer so it is easy to patch them in at various points in the signal flow.
I don't waste any time using them either. In fact they speed up the engineering process. When tracking it is just a simple operation to tweak incoming gain to get them to nicely peak just up to 0dB VU. It is easy to check busses to make sure your total sound arriving on a buss is also just hitting 0 dB VU. And finally on the masterbuss it is also a simple matter to fine tune everything for a great mix and that final mix is also just hitting 0dB VU. Not hard and quick!
The Klanghelm VST VU meters are pretty good and are an excellent solotuion for those who want to do any VU monitoring all inside your DAW. You can tweak the settings of those to move in a very similar way to an expensive real VU meter. Not quite as nice as the real deal but very good none the less.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 20:27:25
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Good point Ben about different types of VU meters. There are VU meters and then there are VU meters! Watch out using the VU's on your TL audio gear. They are not in the league of a serious expensive VU and also they are only showing you what is either coming or going from that particular piece of gear. They are not calibrated (to your DAW) either so they are not a lot of use.
Wrong again Jeff, if I remember we need to press the +10 button on the compressor and this normally calbibrates the meter to the digital realm and I only ever use the VU to see how much gain reduction I have, I understand the musicality of VU meters, just as good as you!!!
And because I tend to squash things by around -3db because I have already given myself headroom my A2 only grabs the peaks so the meter never dances wildly and it tends to be very musical, the EQ (the EQ on this device is the reall winnning story, just a smidge of bottom and top end, magnificent) and the dial in tube harmonic distortion make the A2 and excellent peice of kit.
Neb
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trimph1
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 20:29:01
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To heck with this...I'm going back to knotted rope. 
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 20:34:40
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BenMMusTech
That sounds like a threat Danny!!!
What have I done???
Apart from point out the obvious, you and Jeff are usually in clousion I and turn it into a joke, I ask again what have I done.
Now there will be some who agree with you ban me for life, some would disagree with you and I have seen many who have said welcome back.
It's true I am a divisive personality but I pull my weight around this forum, I have brought interesting topics to the table, I have brought interesting information to the table and again people have thanked me.
I have tried to help people with their X1 problems and particualy their wirless controllers, for which I am one of the few people who have had very few problems with these controllers.
I ask again Danny what I have I done, I mean your threat!! I could report that couldn't I but I don't because I can play with the big boys, even when I was banned I made no threats to get banned!!!
Your postulating only confirms my joke!!
Neb
Please report me. I see no threat. I growled at you like a dog would if you kept on teasing it and said "Don't fk with me and forget I exist". That's hardly a threat, but if it tickles your fancy to report me, please do so and don't procrastinate or analytically study the post to the point of earning another degree. It's not the first time you've used my name in a way that I felt was uncalled for. Your joke....don't joke with me or include me in your jokes. You're not a friend that has earned the right to do so. -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 20:35:43
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Yes thanks Ben I am not fully aquainted with the inner workings of your TL Audio device. I do know they do sound rather great. I had to repair one a few years back for a major studio here in Melbourne and I used it for a while after that and was impressed for sure. (BTW I had BIG problems getting parts for it, it is NOT well serviced here in Oz) You had better hope it does not break down.
Not sure what you mean by +10 button and what digital level is it calibrating too that is another question. As we know there can be many varying reference levels like -14 which I use a lot, then Pro Tools (and many others) are on -18, we have K system -20 and SSL also suggest -22 and -24 as reference levels. So how would you go calibrating your TL meters to any of those standards.
I would be inclined to use the TL meter for what is intended for and that is monitoring what is coming in and going away from the TL device. Separate calibrated VU's elsewhere in the system are much more flexible and useful. Also I can change the ref level that my VU's are using at the drop of a hat.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 20:38:07
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What have I done???
Maybe, this comment? Danny and Jeff they make such a lovley school yard chums, you can see them now, pulling the wings off fly's, burning ants with mangnifying glasses. I can imagine most people would be a little angry at a statement like this.
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 20:50:11
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Matt don't you get irony, your from Oz, we are British in nature so we should get irony.
Look at the tone of converstaion, between Jeff, myself and Danny, I use humour and irony to point out the obvious,
Look at Jeffs final comment's yes great unit's but hard to service, you better hope it doesn't break down.
It's because it's manufactured in Brittan, one of the few devices in this price range ($2000) that isn't manufactured in China.
So by proxy of course it's going to be hard to get parts and service, christ anything that is manufactured outside of this country and in this price range is going to be difficult to get parts and service for.
Neb
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trimph1
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/06 22:48:02
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I tend to use VU meters more rather than less when it comes to this.
Probably it is because I find it easier to manage the production that way...who knows....
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/08 06:48:54
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recording hot could possibly add some form of digital harmonic distortion, or that is how I read it.
Man, this thread show's how little we know about the digital recording process and how importent these discusions are!!
I'm sticking with the hot theory because I tend to mix in Sonar as if it was an analog mixer, eg I use the trim pot and Esp if there is even half a chance of adding some kind of digital harmonic distortion that is pleasing to the ears, into my mix. There is no such thing as pleasant sounding digital distortion.
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
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trimph1
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/08 07:09:49
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Digital Distortion?!?!?!? EEEK!! I've done that several times here...it do not work!!!!! OK..I'll grant that there MIGHT be an aesthetic appeal to that type of sonic mayhem for some but that is all it is...only aesthetes would go for that I suppose....  
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/08 10:00:06
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Yeah, aesthetic appeal may be one thing, but could you call it music?
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
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trimph1
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Re:Paul Frindle-Lets Make Things Even More Confusing!!
2012/05/08 10:41:10
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I suppose, if one can imagine that...eeeewwww....
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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