Reign of Praine
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Perfecting vocals to pitch.
My vocals aren't that great. Those of you who heard my music know my vocals aren't that great. They're not horrible... they're just not great. When I record my vocals, sometimes I miss the pitch by a few cents or so but it is noticable. I know their are a lot of pop artists who "perfect" their vocals when they record a studio album and sound awful when performing live (Katy Perry for example). That means that there is some kind of program that can digitally enhance your voice to be "on". I need to get my hands on this program as my vocals can use some "enhancing". How would I get a program that can do this?
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/11/29 19:10:26
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An old trick for proper articulation is to try getting all the words out while balancing a book on your head.
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Guitarhacker
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/11/29 19:20:47
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Melodyne works wonders.....
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ara
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/11/30 00:07:53
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v vocal- someone gave the tip to set the formant to 0 from default 100, use smaller clips, bounce frequently, select and correct several times after bouncing, listen carefully for those anomalies that need to vary from true pitch and don't correct those; cons- it seems to make esses really thick and muddy ; you just gotta use it over time to make it your own Ara www.aratunes.us
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rbecker
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/01 13:51:21
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ORIGINAL: Guitarhacker
Melodyne works wonders.....
To expand on the above good advice from Guitarhacker... I also am vocally challenged :). I have found that Melodyne UNO by Celemony for pitch correction helps a lot...more than what one might think. Look at celemony.com. I think UNO is about $200.
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lazarous
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/01 14:55:56
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ORIGINAL: rbecker
To expand on the above good advice from Guitarhacker...
I also am vocally challenged :). I have found that Melodyne UNO by Celemony for pitch correction helps a lot...more than what one might think. Look at celemony.com. I think UNO is about $200.
OR... upgrade to Sonar Producer, and get V-Vocal free. Corey
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mcourter
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/01 17:11:42
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ORIGINAL: Reign of Praine
I know their are a lot of pop artists who "perfect" their vocals when they record a studio album and sound awful when performing live (Katy Perry for example). Holy Toledo! Did anyone catch the CMA Awards show? Besides the fact that most of the songs performed were boring and insipid, some of the vocals were terrible. Taylor Swift among those. Awful pitch!
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altima_boy_2001
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/02 02:16:28
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sound awful when performing live (Katy Perry for example). The Madonna cover I saw her do on some MTV award show sounded like bad karaoke... 
You can use me as your eSoundz referral (altima_boy_2001).
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/02 08:49:47
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ORIGINAL: mcourter
ORIGINAL: Reign of Praine
I know their are a lot of pop artists who "perfect" their vocals when they record a studio album and sound awful when performing live (Katy Perry for example).
Holy Toledo! Did anyone catch the CMA Awards show? Besides the fact that most of the songs performed were boring and insipid, some of the vocals were terrible. Taylor Swift among those. Awful pitch!
Missed it... I am however, at the moment, watching and listening to Andrea Bocelli on the CBS Early Show. What software does he use? :-)
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bitflipper
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/02 14:16:41
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Anybody catch the American Music Awards show last week? Nearly every performer was using pitch correction, sometimes extreme. Kanye West literally could have belched into the mic and it would have come out perfectly on pitch.
What is the deal with this trend toward obvious Cher-effect pitch correction? Will this become the standard for the next decade until the kids tire of it? Or worse, become a permanent element of pop music? Am I just a cranky curmudgeon?
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Jessie Sammler
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/02 20:29:09
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Does Kanye West even sing, or does he just let his ego glower into the microphone? Bit, when you talk about the Cher effect, are you talking about deliberate use to make a pronounced effect (which seems very common these days) or excessive pitch correction to the point where a trained ear like yours hears it as Cher effect? How fake are pop vocalists anyway? I've been noticing a trend lately during "live" performances where pre-recorded backing tracks seem to be used, to the point where it's hard to tell how well (or even if) the star is really singing at a given moment. A particular song might start out sounding very live, off-pitch, natural... but by the first chorus you realize that some part of what you're hearing is Memorex but you're not sure which. What exactly are these ass-clowns doing? <edit for typo>
post edited by Jessie Sammler - 2008/12/02 20:32:04
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Cromberger
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/02 20:40:38
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper
Hi, bitflipper,
Anybody catch the American Music Awards show last week? Nearly every performer was using pitch correction, sometimes extreme. Kanye West literally could have belched into the mic and it would have come out perfectly on pitch. I didn't catch the AMA but I've seen other shows that featured some of the biggest stars where the singers couldn't sing an out of tune note if they'd have *wanted* to. Sad, in my view. What is the deal with this trend toward obvious Cher-effect pitch correction? Will this become the standard for the next decade until the kids tire of it? Or worse, become a permanent element of pop music? I wonder if some of it isn't the "because we can" syndrome. I mean, the technology exists to make even singers with horrid pitch sing in tune, why not use it? After all, it isn't the singing ability of pop stars that makes them stars, it's how young and cool they look. Image is everything. Find me a sexy, charismatic young boy or girl and I'll manufacture you a "singer" who can "sing" on pitch every time. I find this incredibly insulting and pathetic, personally. But current and future generations have, or will, grown up hearing singers with apparently perfect intonation and they have no clue, for the most part, about what a real human being sounds like, especially in a live performance. They'd be pretty shocked if the auto-tune went wonky in the middle of a performance by some of today's biggest stars, I'm sure. Well, if they could even tell the difference, that is. Am I just a cranky curmudgeon?
Probably. ;>) But if you are, please let me join the cranky curmudgeon club because I'm totally with you on this. Best regards, Bill Edit: For a stupendously foolish gramatical error.....
post edited by Cromberger - 2008/12/02 20:44:13
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bitflipper
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/02 20:52:19
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Bit, when you talk about the Cher effect, are you talking about deliberate use to make a pronounced effect (which seems very common these days) or excessive pitch correction to the point where a trained ear like yours hears it as Cher effect? Both. Sometimes I am guilty of being oversensitive to pitch correction, a side-effect of listening so intently for it in my own endeavors. When I listen to my own early crude attempts to do it, I absolutely cringe. Now, my ears just zero in on those unnatural pitch shifts. They are so distracting I can't enjoy the other elements of the song. But my fear is that over time no one will really hear it anymore - an evil type of ear de-training, I suppose.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Bristol_Jonesey
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/03 04:50:58
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They'd be pretty shocked if the auto-tune went wonky in the middle of a performance by some of today's biggest stars If I was the engineer, I'd be tempted to do it deliberately, just for a laugh.
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mcourter
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/03 12:13:46
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ORIGINAL: Jessie Sammler
How fake are pop vocalists anyway? I've been noticing a trend lately during "live" performances where pre-recorded backing tracks seem to be used, to the point where it's hard to tell how well (or even if) the star is really singing at a given moment. A particular song might start out sounding very live, off-pitch, natural... but by the first chorus you realize that some part of what you're hearing is Memorex but you're not sure which. What exactly are these ass-clowns doing?
<edit for typo>
I think this is much more common than I had previously believed. Especially the singing/dancing acts, who toil through several minutes of intense aerobics while purportedly singing while maintaining perfect pitch and tempo. Beyonce, Madonna, Britney, etc. Three and a half minutes of gymnastics, sweating away, huffing and puffing, but their pitch never falters. Uh huh.
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No How
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/03 12:14:18
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It's simply beyond belief what is possible now from our pc that would have only been possible before with an inheritance or second mortgate....but, for me, i draw the line at vocals. I'll use fake drums, fake strings, fake bass...but to perfect the pitch of the human voice is a step into virtual world that i find alarming...for the above reasons and also for aesthetics. I don't mind an off note now and then. I the vocalist is so bad you need to alter half the song it's better to do instrumentals. Humans are not digital creatures...we're a bit off.
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Spaceduck
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/03 12:35:45
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I came to that same resolution a few years ago. Vocals should be as natural as possible because it's one of the few naturally tuned instruments left in the world. We've already got the even temperament compromise on all rock instruments. Then along comes midi which further pigeonholes us. All we've got left are fretless instruments and the human voice. But FWIW I have faith that the Cher vocal culture will peter out soon enough. Over time, pop music always swings back & forth. People will get sick of the computerized sound, just like in the 90s people got sick of big hair glam bands. I think there will be another wave of "unplugged" pop songs. ...which will be followed by another wave of digital android overproduced fakery... we just have to ride it out and hop on the merry go round when it best suits us. Although I bought Melodyne 4 years ago, I only used it on 2 songs before realizing the horror of what I was doing. It's been collecting dust ever since. Nowadays if I can't sing a note, I cheat the old fashioned way... record it 100 times and pick the best one. If after 100 times there's nothing I can use, I rewrite the part!
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bitflipper
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/03 16:23:03
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I have faith that the Cher vocal culture will peter out soon enough. Over time, pop music always swings back & forth. People will get sick of the computerized sound, just like in the 90s people got sick of big hair glam bands. I sure hope you're right about that, duck. I'm dubious, but we can hope. First of all, big hair died a welcome death because it was just too much work for the wearer. Even in the more natural 70's I spent half an hour preparing my hair before a gig. Kind of a waste since it was just going to go all sweaty and stringy during the first set anyway. I was happy when styles changed and I no longer felt obligated to maintain that much hair. Digital audio fakery, on the other hand, requires little from the performer in the way of either effort or skill. Like throwing on a stomp box and punching in a preset. That alone will encourage its continued use and continued evolution. Consider how commonplace drum replacement is. Nobody in the industry really likes to talk about it, but I'll bet it's now used in the majority of commercial recordings. Ditto for amp/speaker simulation. String and horn sections are more often sampled than real. Even bass guitars are doubled with synths. It's only a matter of time before completely artificial vocals are a viable option. Like the story of the audiophile who attended his first live orchestra performance and complained that it needed more treble, we've reached a point where the original references have become meaningless. Why bother making any instrument sound natural when most listeners have never actually heard the real thing?
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Randy P
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/03 16:52:36
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C'mon Dave, your slippin into "curmudgeon" territory here.  I remember (barely) back in the 80's when synth bands were all the rage (Human League anyone?), and alot of people were predicting the end of the rock band as we knew it then. A couple of Nirvana's and Green Days later, they are still here. I agree about the digital fakery, but I hope you are wrong about it replacing "players" so to speak. I've got 2 teenagers who can smell the fake stuff and deride it strongly. I wear that as a badge of honor, as a parent and musician. Randy
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Spaceduck
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/03 17:05:45
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper
First of all, big hair died a welcome death because it was just too much work for the wearer. Even in the more natural 70's I spent half an hour preparing my hair before a gig. Kind of a waste since it was just going to go all sweaty and stringy during the first set anyway. I was happy when styles changed and I no longer felt obligated to maintain that much hair. Not to mention how after a certain age you don't really have a choice anymore! Your 'do just refuses to inflate. Yup, it was a wonderful thing when styles changed. Even if I got stuck with a case of unused Aqua Net. Like the story of the audiophile who attended his first live orchestra performance and complained that it needed more treble, we've reached a point where the original references have become meaningless. Why bother making any instrument sound natural when most listeners have never actually heard the real thing? That's a really crazy thought but very true. Still, I think there will always be a place for authentic instruments & performers... a carnival freakshow maybe... but it'll still draw a modest crowd. Man I suddenly have the urge to listen to Karn Evil 9 There behind a glass stands a real blade of grass
Be careful as you pass, move along, move along 
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Cromberger
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/03 19:16:04
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ORIGINAL: Bristol_Jonesey
They'd be pretty shocked if the auto-tune went wonky in the middle of a performance by some of today's biggest stars
If I was the engineer, I'd be tempted to do it deliberately, just for a laugh.
LOL. Excellent idea! Best regards, Bill
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Cromberger
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/03 19:26:07
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ORIGINAL: mcourter
ORIGINAL: Jessie Sammler
How fake are pop vocalists anyway? I've been noticing a trend lately during "live" performances where pre-recorded backing tracks seem to be used, to the point where it's hard to tell how well (or even if) the star is really singing at a given moment. A particular song might start out sounding very live, off-pitch, natural... but by the first chorus you realize that some part of what you're hearing is Memorex but you're not sure which. What exactly are these ass-clowns doing?
<edit for typo>
I think this is much more common than I had previously believed. Especially the singing/dancing acts, who toil through several minutes of intense aerobics while purportedly singing while maintaining perfect pitch and tempo. Beyonce, Madonna, Britney, etc. Three and a half minutes of gymnastics, sweating away, huffing and puffing, but their pitch never falters. Uh huh.
Hi, mcourter, Did you happen to catch the Garth Brooks concert that was in honor of the California firemen last year? It was a great show, actually, but I couldn't get over how Garth could run around all over the place and never miss a note, pitch wise. Having seen him some years ago, sans pitch correction, I knew that his intonation, while not bad, is far from the perfection that I heard on the concert last year. I wonder how many newbie singer/performers are totally flummoxed as to why they can't dance and do gymnastics like their hero's do and still sing on pitch..... Must be frustrating for those that don't know the secret. Best regards, Bill
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Jessie Sammler
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/03 19:53:27
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I wonder how many newbie singer/performers are totally flummoxed as to why they can't dance and do gymnastics like their hero's do and still sing on pitch..... Must be frustrating for those that don't know the secret. It's a shame that watching a performer standing in one place (or sitting), and maybe playing a piano or a guitar, isn't interesting enough for audiences -- that these elaborate dance routines are pretty much required for pop stars. I guess if you take a way the dance routine with all the "backup" dancers, the crazy costumes, the pitch-correction, and the lip-synching, you pretty much have Taylor Swift's performance at the recent CMA Awards. I guess then it would be too obvious that a lot of people who are making it as singers don't deserve to. I saw Beyonce on SNL a couple of weeks ago, and at one point I thought, "Wow! That's a lot of hype for someone who can't sing any better than she does."
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Cromberger
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/03 20:29:45
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ORIGINAL: Jessie Sammler
I wonder how many newbie singer/performers are totally flummoxed as to why they can't dance and do gymnastics like their hero's do and still sing on pitch..... Must be frustrating for those that don't know the secret.
It's a shame that watching a performer standing in one place (or sitting), and maybe playing a piano or a guitar, isn't interesting enough for audiences -- that these elaborate dance routines are pretty much required for pop stars. I guess if you take a way the dance routine with all the "backup" dancers, the crazy costumes, the pitch-correction, and the lip-synching, you pretty much have Taylor Swift's performance at the recent CMA Awards. I guess then it would be too obvious that a lot of people who are making it as singers don't deserve to. I saw Beyonce on SNL a couple of weeks ago, and at one point I thought, "Wow! That's a lot of hype for someone who can't sing any better than she does."
Hi, Jessie, Right on. I feel the same way about the pop "music" genre. I think it's sad that audiences don't think they've gotten their money's worth unless there is some sort of over-the-top "show" to go along with their "music". But that's certainly what the pop music world has come to. It's so ironic that the music, itself, is the least important factor in the concerts of today. I wonder when the classical music world will get on the stick and start having the string section dancing while the horn section waves flags around the stage for no apparent reason. And, of course, the conductor should look as outrageous as possible and maybe even have a light saber for a baton. They'd fill a lot more seats at the concerts in all likelihood. Might be just the ticket to revitalize the orchestras of America. Best regards, Bill
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No How
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/04 09:45:36
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ORIGINAL: Jessie Sammler
I wonder how many newbie singer/performers are totally flummoxed as to why they can't dance and do gymnastics like their hero's do and still sing on pitch..... Must be frustrating for those that don't know the secret.
It's a shame that watching a performer standing in one place (or sitting), and maybe playing a piano or a guitar, isn't interesting enough for audiences -- that these elaborate dance routines are pretty much required for pop stars. I guess if you take a way the dance routine with all the "backup" dancers, the crazy costumes, the pitch-correction, and the lip-synching, you pretty much have Taylor Swift's performance at the recent CMA Awards. I guess then it would be too obvious that a lot of people who are making it as singers don't deserve to. I saw Beyonce on SNL a couple of weeks ago, and at one point I thought, "Wow! That's a lot of hype for someone who can't sing any better than she does."
Are you saying my naked neon flying trapeze stage show is going too far???
post edited by No How - 2008/12/04 12:08:24
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foxwolfen
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/04 12:58:50
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Interestingly, I got nothing to add. I sit squarely on the fence with this one.
Cheers
Shad
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Philip
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/04 13:35:23
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ORIGINAL: Spaceduck
I came to that same resolution a few years ago. Vocals should be as natural as possible because it's one of the few naturally tuned instruments left in the world. We've already got the even temperament compromise on all rock instruments. Then along comes midi which further pigeonholes us. All we've got left are fretless instruments and the human voice.
But FWIW I have faith that the Cher vocal culture will peter out soon enough. Over time, pop music always swings back & forth. People will get sick of the computerized sound, just like in the 90s people got sick of big hair glam bands. I think there will be another wave of "unplugged" pop songs.
...which will be followed by another wave of digital android overproduced fakery... we just have to ride it out and hop on the merry go round when it best suits us.
Although I bought Melodyne 4 years ago, I only used it on 2 songs before realizing the horror of what I was doing. It's been collecting dust ever since. Nowadays if I can't sing a note, I cheat the old fashioned way... record it 100 times and pick the best one. If after 100 times there's nothing I can use, I rewrite the part!
I just got Melodyne Plug-in yesterday. While for me its great for ideas, Melodyne really doesn't eliminate the Cher effect, though V-vocal has given me nothing but Comb-filtered pain (I think  ) 'Direct Note Acess' is an upgrade freebee with this version ($230 total) ... if it ever makes it. But melodyne (not so great for off-register pitch correction) is great for helping me think vocal harmonies and backing vocals. Day 1 with it has already helped me balance counterpoint harmonies ... something that S8 just doesn't do well (for me) with V-Vocal. I agree that both precious coloration and ambiance seem lost by pitch correction. Perfect Pitch is a lower priority than vocal harmony and vocal backing. Things seem cold and computerized and require colorful and ambiant vocals, guitar, and drums. JMO
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No How
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/04 14:08:34
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A Beatles tune comes to mind "Yes It Is" where there are a couple spots where it sounds to me like the boys were definately a bit off in the 3 point harmonies and yet, it's my all time favorite Beatles tune...go figure  To imagine that being 'corrected' with perfect pitch would be akin to sucking the blood out of the song and replacing it with anti-freeze.
s o n g s – Beauty lodged in a bad hotel has no value. Raymond Lull
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Jessie Sammler
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/04 21:44:02
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To imagine that being 'corrected' with perfect pitch would be akin to sucking the blood out of the song and replacing it with anti-freeze.
...or embalming fluid.
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Dave King
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RE: Perfecting vocals to pitch.
2008/12/04 23:40:24
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eh.... leave 'em the way they are. It adds character!
Dave King www.davekingmusic.com SONAR X2 Producer 64-Bit
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