Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard

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Ian1957
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2015/06/01 08:09:59 (permalink)

Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard

Hi Guys
Have just purchased Music Creator 7 but I am very new to this, many years ago I did dabble with Garage Band. So, now that I am semi retired I plan to learn how to play music.
I have never done this before. So in your opinion which keyboard will best suit my needs.
Cheers
Ian 
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    Beagle
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 11:42:09 (permalink)
    Hi Ian,
    welcome
     
    that question has a lot of variables that you need to answer. 
     
    a MIDI controller doesn't have any sounds itself, you have to use softsynths in MC to get it to make sounds.
    a keyboard has sounds that you can record EITHER the MIDI output or the AUDIO output to record the actual sounds.  usually you don't want to do that unless you're recording a keyboard which sounds really good (one of the higher end keyboards such as Nord, Yamaha Motif, Roland Fantom, Hammond, etc)
    All modern keyboards will do BOTH sounds AND MIDI.
    All controllers will only do MIDI.
     
    most modern MIDI from keyboards are done through USB.  If your soundcard doesn't have MIDI ports then you definitely want to check to make sure the keyboard/controller you buy uses USB for MIDI I/O.
     
    prices range from $50 to thousands (i.e. Yamaha Motif XF8 = ~$3700 street price).
     
    the feel of the keyboard is another thing you need to consider.  if you're a pianist, you really want a controller/keyboard which has 88 weighted keys.  And none of the brands feel the same.  Personally I've tried a lot of weighted keyboards and my favorite feel is the CASIO Privia line.  Good value for the money, too. ($500 to $1000 new).
     
    if you are an organ player, you want a keyboard with "waterfall" keys.  if you're not an organ player, you won't know what that is.  .  a budget organ with really good sounds and is very lightweight is the Hammond SK1 ($1900 new). 
     
    If you want the synth feel, there are a lot of options.  My preference is the Yamaha line for this.  they put out some stuff which is geared more toward people who like to build up songs on the keyboard itself (ES series which are $250 and up), the PSR systems which are "personal keyboards" and geared toward beginners (starting around $99 and up) and the MX series which are low cost but higher end sounds than the ES systems ($500-$700) and the MOX series (or the MO series for used, older models) which are really powerful and great sounding synths without as much sequencer functionality ($1200 to $1700 for new) and the Motif series which are $2500 to $3700 and they are full blown sequencers.
     
    I have not gone over MIDI controllers themselves.  I currently own 1 MIDI controller I use for "quick inputs" and that's an M-Audio Oxygen.  It's also good for taking on trips since it will fit in a suitcase and connect to my ipad.  but the keys are not full size keys, they're actually even smaller than synth keys and they're slick and sometimes my fingers slip off of them. 
     
    what kind of soundcard are you using with MC?  are you trying to use the onboard soundcard?  If so, I recommend getting a recording soundcard instead.  we can help you with selection of that as well.  But it's more important than the keyboard itself, IMO.

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    #2
    Ian1957
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 13:30:26 (permalink)
    Thanks for that comprehensive reply.
    I am using the on board sound card which at the moment I cant get it to play midi..LoL.  
    I was looking at this Yamaha PSRE243 61-Key Portable Keyboard as a starting keyboard. This does not have pressure sensative keys. Will that be a problem? I was hoping that I could use this to both start my adventure in to learning how to play and as an input device for Music Creator.
    Cheers
    Ian
    #3
    Ian1957
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 14:05:57 (permalink)
    Got the midi to play back 
    #4
    scook
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 14:50:11 (permalink)
    I am not sure how you are playing MIDI back but if you enabled the Microsoft GS Wavetable synth you might want to reconsider using it. Tutorial #4 walks through the process of using soft synths to generate sound. All the tutorials are linked to the Getting Started section of the help menu.
     
    I cannot comment on your choice of keyboard. I am not a keyboard player but have used a series of cheap 49 key MIDI keyboards as input devices. I use 49 key devices because of the size issues.
    #5
    Ian1957
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 16:14:58 (permalink)
    Thanks Scook for the info. Having a little difficulty doing what you said but I will persevere. 
    Cheers
    Ian
    #6
    scook
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 16:19:04 (permalink)
    With no MIDI output selected in Preferences > MIDI > Devices try opening a MIDI file (not a project file cwp extension). MC will automatically setup TTS-1, one of the bundled synths, to play the file.
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    azslow3
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 16:30:39 (permalink)
    Ian1957
    I was looking at this Yamaha PSRE243 61-Key Portable Keyboard as a starting keyboard. This does not have pressure sensative keys. Will that be a problem?

    Yes, that is a problem.
    In that price range have a look at MIDI keyboards (without sound). All synth with 49+ keys under $500 are toys.
     
    For any kind of piano music you need piano like action. Yamaha P-45/ Korg SP-170 are cheapest. But (already mentioned) Casio, Kawai, Yamaha, Roland $1000+ are devices to look at in case you are serious. Cheapest "hi-end" (digital) piano action is Kawai VPC1 (no sound! just MIDI keyboard). Piano players can at some degree imitate piano using synth action, but most of them have learned playing on real one...
     
    For other music I am not the one who can recommend something.

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    Beagle
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 16:34:17 (permalink)
    TTS-1 is what I mentioned above as a "softsynth"; short for "software synthesizer"  you send MIDI to it and it makes the sounds for the output.  MS GS Wavetable is basically a "lookup table" on the onboard chip and the sounds are very limited.
     
    Once you start understanding how to use TTS-1, you should start looking at tutorials on how to use Cakewalk SoundCenter because the sounds there are much better than the ones in TTS-1.  SoundCenter has "sampled sounds" which basically means they recorded each note of each instrument and when you send a MIDI signal to Music Creator it translates that to the appropriate recorded sound.
     
    As far as the PSRE-243, it's fine for a starting keyboard.  it should be able to send MIDI data to MC using USB and will play sounds on its own as well (so if you prefer you can hook up audio cables to your soundcard instead of using softsynths and MIDI).  it has synth based keys which are "springy" not weighted and not waterfall edges. 
     
    the feel is only for YOUR decision, whether you get weighted, synth or semi-weighted or anything in between doesn't matter as far as sending MIDI data to MC.  so if you can play a synth non-weighted keyboard, then it shouldn't be a problem.

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    azslow3
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 18:17:23 (permalink)
    Beagle
    As far as the PSRE-243, it's fine for a starting keyboard.  it should be able to send MIDI data to MC using USB and will play sounds on its own as well (so if you prefer you can hook up audio cables to your soundcard instead of using softsynths and MIDI).  it has synth based keys which are "springy" not weighted and not waterfall edges.

    With all respect, are you serious about recommending not sensitive keyboard to someone, even as a starting one? Soundwise he can play computer keyboard with the same result... May be 343?
     
    I had my fun with not sensitive mini toy (I think it was Yamaha) as well as not sensitive Casio "full size". As a toy, 25 years ago, they was not bad.

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    Ian1957
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 20:19:55 (permalink)
    Thanks for all the advice regarding a keyboard. However I think my biggest problem at the moment is working out the best way to replay midi. It seem the only way I can do it atm is via the onboard graphics card. And as someone pointed out it is better done via the soft synths. But I dont seem do be able to do this. Despite  following the tutorials. 
    What I need is the idiots guide to setting this up...Lol
    Cheers
    Ian
    #11
    scook
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 21:07:50 (permalink)
    Here is the simplest setup I can think of
    Start MC7,
    Close the Quick Start dialog
    Type CTRL+N
    Insert > Soft Synth > DirectX > TTS-1
    Select "simple instrument track" in the Insert Soft Synth Options dialog
    Drag the MIDI clip from the browser to the TTS-1 instrument track
    start the transport.
     
    Alternately, if you do not have a MIDI output device specified in Preferences, you should be able to Open a .mid file and have TTS-1 automatically setup.
    post edited by scook - 2015/06/01 21:14:19
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    Beagle
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 21:41:03 (permalink)
    azslow3
    Beagle
    As far as the PSRE-243, it's fine for a starting keyboard.  it should be able to send MIDI data to MC using USB and will play sounds on its own as well (so if you prefer you can hook up audio cables to your soundcard instead of using softsynths and MIDI).  it has synth based keys which are "springy" not weighted and not waterfall edges.

    With all respect, are you serious about recommending not sensitive keyboard to someone, even as a starting one? Soundwise he can play computer keyboard with the same result... May be 343?
     
    I had my fun with not sensitive mini toy (I think it was Yamaha) as well as not sensitive Casio "full size". As a toy, 25 years ago, they was not bad.




    I agree that a keyboard without velocity sensitive keys is not ideal and I agree with you that it would be best if he chose something that does have velocity sensitive keys.  
     
    But honestly if you're comparing a PSR to a computer keyboard then I'm can't even believe you're really serious.  it certainly does not show "respect."  
     
    Mostly what I've found for advice for people, Ian, is that "it will work for you until it doesn't"
     
    basically that means it will work until you decide you need something that works differently.
    post edited by Beagle - 2015/06/01 22:07:20

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    Beagle
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 21:41:44 (permalink)
    Ian - follow scook's instructions, they should work for you.
     

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    Ian1957
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 21:43:54 (permalink)
    Hi Scook that seems to work.
    Thanks
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    Ian1957
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 21:46:11 (permalink)
    It seems like I have a lot to learn. But thanks to you guys I am taking my first small baby steps.
    Cheers
    Ian
     
    #16
    scook
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/01 21:51:21 (permalink)
    You might want to spend some time viewing the videos not just the MC7 ones here http://www.cakewalk.com/caketv/music-creator
    And yes, there is a lifetime of learning.
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    57Gregy
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/02 09:53:17 (permalink)
    Bought my Yamaha PSR-GX76 in 2001  for ~$330 and it's still going strong.
    Sampled sounds, MIDI, touch-sensitive, 76 keys. It may be a 'toy', but I like it.
    Disclaimer: I am not a professional musician, but I have been paid to play.

    Greg 
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    azslow3
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/02 15:03:58 (permalink)
    May be I should apologies for my definition of a 'toy'. I am not professional and I am not paid for playing...
     
    It is just so that after real piano I was unable to find some satisfaction in the digital world in the affordable for me price range.  Several years ago I have systematically tested everything with keys, from $300 up to $3000 (thanks to the shop in the near, which always has them ALL), days long, reading reviews, technologies and discussions. I was concentrated on Digital Pianos, but with often travels in mind, I was also testing small format synth actions.
     
    My conclusion was that middle range hammer actions are acceptable for me (decision between Yamaha and Kawai was hard). For lightweight solution I have noticed MIDI keyboards not only smaller then something with sound module (like PSR) but also of better quality for the same money. I was surprised that I prefer light synth action over semi-weighted and I have no problems with Roland's short (in length)  keys.
     
    About sounds. From technologies, discussions, playing with Sonar and testing real devices, I come to the conclusion that computer synth sound generation is way better then "hardware" way on cheap devices. The fact is that producers are using quite old hardware for all models.
     
    All that is subjective, not professional, etc.

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    57Gregy
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/02 16:33:44 (permalink)
    Of course. There are many fine keyboards out there which I would love to own. I think the PSR series is a great line of starter keyboards; inexpensive, well-constructed and mostly good sounds.
    As a hobbyist, it works fine for me. If I was a professional, I would certainly seek out better gear. 

    Greg 
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    ray.timmermans@gmail.com
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/25 18:30:20 (permalink)
    I have found great satisfaction with an M-Audio 25. Hardly a toy and got it on ebay for $30. The less you pay on hardware, the more you have to spend on software like Kontakt (and the zillion libraries) available. I would recommend you visit Youtube and do a search for VST plugins. I have found East West Quantum Leap's Symphonic Orchestra Gold or IK Multimedia's Sample Tank (or if you prefer Miroslav Philharmonik) sufficient for all my voicing needs. Much better than what comes with Music Creator.
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    jimfogle
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/06/27 17:44:35 (permalink)
    Ian,  You said you've purchased MC7, intend to learn music and asked for keyboard recommendations.  You've received some excellent suggestions but please clarify your intent behind the you "intend to learn music" statement.  Does that mean you want to learn music theory, recording and music production, how to sight read sheet music or play a keyboard?  The reason I ask is because several keyboard makers offer student or learning keyboards that have features like backlighted keys or include lessons that are useful to untutored or self taught students.
    post edited by jimfogle - 2015/06/27 18:06:03

    Jim F
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    leanhnam220
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/07/27 01:21:17 (permalink)
    Thanks for giving me interesting information
     


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    marcusbutler
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/08/17 23:47:51 (permalink)
    I would like to know can you play chords with the computer keyboard or just single notes? If you can play chords by holding the keys down at the same time or make a chord by another method. I am a beginner! If I cannot invest in a midi controller or a keyboard at this time, can I still create musical tracks, like playing chords on one track and single notes on a second track with the same instrument sound like a piano sound? Do you have any ideas about how I can use the computer keyboard  to make the piano instrument sound musical? Thanks!
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    scook
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/08/18 00:01:34 (permalink)
    The virtual keyboard included with MC7 is an 18 note keyboard. It can play chords but may be a little awkward. The same is true for virtual keyboards which use more keys notes. The PC keyboard layout is just not the best for music. If you want to use a different virtual keyboard you will also need a virtual MIDI cable, see here for links to both http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2991556. IMO, even the cheapest MIDI keyboard is easier to use than the PC keyboard and there are some very inexpensive ones out there.
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    marcusbutler
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    Re: Piano Keyboard or Midi keyboard 2015/08/18 00:11:40 (permalink)
    Thanks scook, for the info and the website I will check it out!
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