Piano Roll editing and track layers

Hi guys,

I have a question about PRV edits done to midi clips.

Basically I have a bunch of drums clips layered on a midi track, and I may want to add a note to a specific clip (say a another snare hit to the layer containing all the snare clips). I will double click on that clip to enter PRV and add a note but often find that after having exited PRV that MIDI note appears on a different layer/clip.

What am I missing here. How do I know I am editing a specific clip/layer when I am in PRV?

If you double click on a MIDI clip, the PRV view will open for all notes on that track. I am fairly sure that new notes are added to the clip with the closest notes. Not much I know of to control it, but maybe someone else has an idea.

The layers feature of Sonar still needs some work, and it still has bugs with its dragging of content between clips. My best suggestion, until it is improved (if ever),  is to use a separate track (instead of separate layers) assigned to the same MIDI channel. Keeping all the clips for different drum types (eg. snares, hats) in separate tracks will also make recording/mixing down of the drums much easier, since you can solo them or adjust levels more quickly in a separate track.

D.

you could create a step sequencer of each hit and put the notes in that way

perfectprint


Hi guys,

I have a question about PRV edits done to midi clips.

Basically I have a bunch of drums clips layered on a midi track, and I may want to add a note to a specific clip (say a another snare hit to the layer containing all the snare clips). I will double click on that clip to enter PRV and add a note but often find that after having exited PRV that MIDI note appears on a different layer/clip.

What am I missing here. How do I know I am editing a specific clip/layer when I am in PRV?

What you're describing is the way layers work.  What you're missing is that you don't need to have the Track Layers option on in your MIDI track - in fact, you may find that you never need it on.  I leave it off so I can see all of my MIDI track in one go.

But it doesn't matter that your inserted snare notes appear on a different layer - that's just the way Sonar records MIDI.  It's on a new layer because it's a new layer - something added to the original drum track.

I just now took a peek at a piano track I've been working on.  I turned on the Track Layers option to see how it would display--There were sections with 10 layers--because the track has been recorded on that many times.

If it bugs you, or it becomes impractical to have all these layers superimposed on each other, which is the way it looks with layers off--then simply Bounce To Clip - that will combine everything into one solid clip, and sometimes that's what you need to work with.

Randy B.

Just use different tracks instead of layers. You can show multiple tracks in the PRV and then you've got the separation you want. If it's just MIDI then it's not like there's much overhead to worry about. Sure, it adds a bit of real estate, but you can put 'em all in a folder for when you're not editing.

I agree the relationship from the PRV to clips is a little...er.... inelegant. But it's not a showstopper. 

Further to ...wicked's suggestions of moving the layers to separate tracks, you can easily have those MIDI tracks placed in a folder so you can just collapse them all to save space. 

I'm not sure if you can see multiple layers in the PRV.  I'll try it out and if I can figure it out, I'll return to let you know.

Kind regards,

tecknot

tecknot


Further to ...wicked's suggestions of moving the layers to separate tracks, you can easily have those MIDI tracks placed in a folder so you can just collapse them all to save space. 

I'm not sure if you can see multiple layers in the PRV.  I'll try it out and if I can figure it out, I'll return to let you know.

Kind regards,

tecknot

Sure you can.  Layers are there in a MIDI file whether or not you have Layers turned on in the Track View.  They are simply the layers of recordings in one track.  If you're in the habit of recording a passage's notes, and then going back to record its CC11 Expression - you'll have those two layers.  If you then go back in to add some more notes - that'll be another layer.

But it all shows up in the PRV as one track, because it doesn't matter how many layers it took to assemble your MIDI clip or track - in PRV, you're given access to all the data recorded in the track.

If it becomes confusing, then you simply bounce to clips and everything is reduced to one layer.  But if you don't do that, you can erase your volume data layer in one fell swoop if you had a mind to.

The OP said he didn't want to use separate MIDI tracks, even though that's the more common way to work.  The suggestion of using a folder is of course very good, because that conserves screen real estate, if that's the issue he was worrying about.

But drum tracks are so simple.  There aren't that many different notes involved.  Most people work with drums in one MIDI track easily enough - it's the splitting out of each instrument on a separate Audio track which is the crucial thing to do.

Randy B.

Hi Perfectprint

I find midi layers to be a useful feature and in particular in relation to drums as you are doing.  However the bottom line is that their behaviour is inconsistent. For example; the random placing of notes as mentioned in your original post (the work around being along the lines of the one mentioned by Lorneyb2); the insertion of random empty lanes when copying and dragging (unless you grab from the top clip); the random ordering of clips when using "rebuild layers". Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

If you want to use layers and it fits your prefered workflow then you just have to live with the faults and find work-arounds until it gets fixed!
The alternative as several people have already stated is to use individual midi tracks and put them in a folder (or not).  It doesn't really use much more real estate and as well as being more consistent in its behaviour gives you much more flexibility in your editing, as well as helping with the organisational structure of the project.
That being said it is personal choice and it's not really up to other people to tell you what to do.

I would suggest experimenting with a few workflow options and choose the one that works best for you and you are happiest with (though you may have done that already and arrived at layers). Personally for drums I often start with layers for the basics to get in the flow and then expand to individual midi tracks for deeper editing and arranging. I would prefer to just use layers but find them too frustrating at times.  

lorneyb2


I can see Perfectprints point on this.  It is rather nasty.  If you have 2 takes and you want to edit your most recent take even if your first take is muted and you add a note in PRV it may add it to the muted take not the one you are working on. the only way you can be sure is to drag it to a new track and edit it there.  I suppose you could clone the track, delete all the clips in the area you want to work on, edit it, and then drag the clip back into the original track and it will create a new lane in the original track.  You could then delete the track you cloned.  Not very elegant but functional. 

There is no way of selecting a specific take and ensuring that is all that you are going to be editing that I can find but that could be a nice feature.  Could be set up much the same as being able to select 1 track for editing when you have multiple tracks open with a check box to turn off the lanes you don't want to work on.

For a while I had been using layers often, thinking it was a good organizational approach to some 'parts.'
 
These days I rarely use Layers.   They have some serious bugs.   So instead, I just create another MIDI track (or clone the original without events, etc).  Now I have MUCH more control without the extra baggage and much easier editing.
 
Layers would be very handy if they weren't so buggy and if one could edit them separately when one needs to (which turns out to be often, it seems ;) ).
 
 
 
 

Heres hoping for an improvement in future updates then.

Lowline  - I forgot about the annoying random re ordering using the rebuild layers. Just as frustrating.

Thanks for all your input guys. At least I know I wasnt overlooking anything. I think I will go back to trying multiple tracks.




EDIT: On that note, how do you immediately insert a new MIDI track into an  instrument folder? Right clicking to clone, or insert new track requires dragging the new track into the folder. Is this just the way it has to be done?

"...I think I will go back to trying multiple tracks..."

It's your best bet, perfectprint.  This thread has been a good reminder to me why I've never dealt much with MIDI layers.  All I've ever observed is that they're randomly displayed takes.  I work with MIDI mostly in the PRV, and all my takes/layers display there without any hassle, so I admit I haven't been grasping why all the fussing with layers. 

Have you tried working on drums on one MIDI track though?  If not, you may want to try that since drum tracks are so easy to work with in the PRV when they're on one track.  If you're concerned about separate effects for each part of a kit, of course all of that is done with the audio, not the MIDI.

Anyway, I wish you the best on developing a work flow you're happy with which doesn't deal with this quirky MIDI layers feature.

Randy B.