Please Cakewalk, improve your instrument track .....

Hi

90% of my music are made with kontakt. I like to open  just 1 kontakt then load different instruments in it.
Let's see the scenario in the other daws  :

1) I open kontakt in the rack.
2) I load two instruments (patches) 
- violin  st.1 A[1] 
- cello st.2 A[2]
3) I tell the daw how many audio ouputs I want to create from kontakt :  2
in the console it creates two audio outputs.
4) I create two instrument tracks in the track view :
- one instrument track for violin, instrument output : kontakt , channel 1 , audio output : st1
- one instrument track for cello, instrument ouput : kontakt, channel 2, audio output : st2

that's done and easy !!! two instruments , two tracks, two audio outputs, 1 vst in the rack :)

Now.. with sonar 

First method : instrument track

1) I open kontakt in the rack.
2) I load two instruments (patches) 
- violin  st.1 A[1] 
- cello st.2 A[2]
3) I tell the daw how many audio ouputs.... OOPS Not possible !!  
4) I check "simple instrument track" in the softsynth option ... 
Hmmm Ok I have one audio ouput  in the console for called kontakt .. ok..
5) I can't create another instrument track in the track view... So I try to clone it !
the channel of the cloned track : channel 2
6) the first instrument track works, with the channel 1
but not the second track, no sound
the second track with channel 2 will work only if they share the same audio ouput in kontakt :  str.1
Which is not good .. they share the same audio strip , not good for the mixing and mastering.
7) I try the option " make an instrument track" which requieres one audio track and one midi track
but it doesnt work, it doesnt accept , coz the vst is already applied for another instrument track :/

The solution would be to load one kontat for one instrument for one audio ouput... Not good for the memory ...


Second method : midi track

1) I open kontakt in the rack.
2) I load two instruments (patches) 
- violin  st.1 A[1] 
- cello st.2 A[2]

3) I create 2 midi tracks : 
- output  kontakt, channel 1
- output kontakt, channel 2
4) Ok no sound, which is normal,  midi tracks ! midi !
5) I have to create two audio tracks connected to the midi tracks
- input : kontakt st1 
- input : kontakt st2
6) yeahhh it works, but  wth ... I have 4 tracks , 4 strips for two  instrument (patch)
In the track view, I have to hide the audio tracks coz they can't have midi events
In the console, I have to hide the midi strips for a better view i need the audio ones for mixing/mastering
that's boring .... 

Maybe I have missed something
both method are messy ( my opinion)

So please  improve your instrument track !!!  we should be able to create instrument track, assigning audio outputs and channels
 without adding a new vst in the rack

For those who think it's not a problem, well I would say u are just used to work like that 

Hi Arachnaut

thanks for taking time for reading my post

the technique u told me is the second method ( i forgot to mention the insert softsynth option)

Indeed I use kontakt8out
it creates 4 audio tracks ( linked to the softsynth)
but it needs midi tracks to compose , so it's exactly the second method 
the difference , with the all synth audio outputs, it creates many tracks at once
but as i said, i dont like coz u have one audio track + one midi track for one instruments

here the screenshot

Here is how I would do it. I just tested this and it works.
I have two virtual MIDI keyboards - one for channel 1 the other for channel 2.

'Kontakt 8 out' is loaded but I set up only channel 1|2 and channel 3|4, I'm not using channel 5|6 and 7|8 (you can see this in the Kontakt Output section)

Kontakt is set up to use Brass ensemble for Midi channel 1 and plugin stereo output 1 and 2
Cello is Midi channel 2 and plugin output 3 and 4

I set up Sonar track 1 to use Kontakt output 1 and 2 (Brass)  and track 2 to use 3 and 4 (Cello).

The other 2 tracks are not used.

You can open this image in a new window or download it to see it full sized (it is HD format):

toshiroo


...
but it needs midi tracks to compose , so it's exactly the second method 
the difference , with the all synth audio outputs, it creates many tracks at once
but as i said, i dont like coz u have one audio track + one midi track for one instruments 

But don't you want one audio track for each instrument? You will want to level  and EQ each separately, right?
You can mix them all into a single stereo out.
You can use 'Hide Track' to make the unused tracks disappear if screen space is an issue.

Bill Jackson [Cakewalk]

So, as I understand it, what you're looking for is a way to have a single multitimbral/multi-output instrument in the rack, and have multiple instrument tracks associated.  Track 1 output MIDI to channel 1 and receive audio input from instrument outs 1/2.  Track 2 would out to channel 2 and get audio from instrument outs 3/4.  Is that right?

..I also wonder if this is what he's after..

If you just think it's a PITA that you get audio-outputs created that you're not going to use, because you'll only use two instruments in Kontakt I suggest you create a track template. 

Just set up everything as you want it and save it as a track template. You maybe want to unload any instrument in Kontakt before you save, so it won't load these every time you use the template. 

I'm pretty sure I understand what you're looking for. We'll consider adding new functionality like that in the future. For now, you may want to consider creating Track Templates. This will save you from having to repeat setup work. Thanks!

arachnaut


Here is how I would do it. I just tested this and it works.
I have two virtual MIDI keyboards - one for channel 1 the other for channel 2.

'Kontakt 8 out' is loaded but I set up only channel 1|2 and channel 3|4, I'm not using channel 5|6 and 7|8 (you can see this in the Kontakt Output section)

Kontakt is set up to use Brass ensemble for Midi channel 1 and plugin stereo output 1 and 2
Cello is Midi channel 2 and plugin output 3 and 4

I set up Sonar track 1 to use Kontakt output 1 and 2 (Brass)  and track 2 to use 3 and 4 (Cello).

The other 2 tracks are not used.

You can open this image in a new window or download it to see it full sized (it is HD format):

thanks again for your time  ok but how do u compose your midi events with these audio tracks ?? 
it wants midi , so u need to add the midi tracks ...
it doesnt change what I wanted, 
maybe u didn't understand what i wanted lol
I explained it maybe better in the post for bill
I was just "complaining" about the long process
sorry if i made u lose your time : (

@ Bill Jackson [Cakewalk] 

 Ohhh great ! thanks for your interest and helping ... 

arachnaut

toshiroo

thanks again for your time  ok but how do u compose your midi events with these audio tracks ?? 
it wants midi , so u need to add the midi tracks ...
it doesnt change what I wanted, 
maybe u didn't understand what i wanted lol

I suppose I don't follow you.


I compose one MIDI track per Kontakt instrument, just like any other instrument track. One track at a time.

Kontakt is multi-core aware, though, I just checked - so having everything in one instance is probably not a big deal.

What I think he wants is this:

• One instrument track with a merged audio-MIDI-track for the first instrument in Kontakt
• A second merged audio-MIDI-track for the next output in the same instance of Kontakt

As I'm sure you know, this isn't possible today.. But apparently (maybe) will be in the future, according to Bill =)

I did understand the first post right away - probably because I work the same way.

An "instrument track" in Sonar is PER DEFINITION a merged audio-midi-combination. What we would like to have: more than one "instrument track" assigned to a multitimbral synth whereas each "instrument track" uses a different output of that very synth.

I don't work with instrument tracks right now because of at least two other flaws (one is related to a VS-700c bug). So sadly I am overwhelmed by the amount of 'unmerged' audio-midi track combinations in my projects.


Since you can always have seperate audio and midi tracks, such an implementation would automatically become an option (rather than mandatory).

Loptec

arachnaut

toshiroo

thanks again for your time  ok but how do u compose your midi events with these audio tracks ?? 
it wants midi , so u need to add the midi tracks ...
it doesnt change what I wanted, 
maybe u didn't understand what i wanted lol

I suppose I don't follow you.


I compose one MIDI track per Kontakt instrument, just like any other instrument track. One track at a time.

Kontakt is multi-core aware, though, I just checked - so having everything in one instance is probably not a big deal.

What I think he wants is this:

• One instrument track with a merged audio-MIDI-track for the first instrument in Kontakt
• A second merged audio-MIDI-track for the next output in the same instance of Kontakt

As I'm sure you know, this isn't possible today.. But apparently (maybe) will be in the future, according to Bill =)

Yes, but I would say this way

• One instrument track with a merged audio-MIDI-track for the first instrument in Kontakt
• Another instrument track for the next output in the same instance of Kontakt
  
  but yes u got it !

JoseC.


Horses for courses. I prefer having separate midi and audio tracks, for several reasons. First of all, because I am used to work with both hardware and software synths. I can change output data (midi)  routing from a software synth to hardware and back, clone tracks and whatever, much easily that way, and I do not have to touch the input (audio) tracks at all. Each synth has its own audio track always, software synths from the synth rack, hardware from their own soundcard input, and that stays that way in the console. Console shows only audio tracks, and I can group tracks in track view as it better suits me. I understand what toshiroo wants, and I am all for having one more option, but I do not find having distinct tracks messy at all, quite the opposite.

+1..
 
I simply dont understand the point of such a request.. you can, right now
 
a)  instantiate Kontakt multiple times, once per instrument, each with simple instrument track (one track per instrument);
b) instantiate Kontakt multiple times, once per instrument with first synth output+ midi source (2 tracks per instrument)
b) instantiate Kontakt with 4 or 8 stereo outs, and add midi channels as you see fit per instrument or sets of instruments..
 
if we are discussing simply the time it takes to hide tracks in a folder then this is a waste of a page of posts :)

I like the idea...  It would also be nice to be able to add an instrument track after the fact too, pointing to that existing synth instance.
 
I'd imagine the same end result could be accomplished manually through track and folder managment, but the same could be said about Bounce vs. Freeze.   Pause button anyone?   
 

Seems very simple though. The audio part of the instrument track is nothing else but an audio track with an input. That is set to the first two outputs of the synth and cannot be changed - this and the correspondend MIDI-Channel are the only values, that we would like to be able to change.

Nothing else changes, no flexibility will be lost.

Was it never meant to work on multiple voice synths? I'm sure this was just overlooked. That's no question of design. It's just that nowadays those 'mini-hosts' like Kontakt or Vienna Ensemble Pro host multiple instruments.

Of course you could open a seperate Kontakt instance for each instrument you would like to have an instrument track for. But that makes the 'host capabilities' of Kontakt or VEP kind of useless. And what a waste of memory.