cazimer
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Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
Hi All, I am at the tired end of what has been a long troubleshooting journey and I am hoping for fresh ideas/help.....
Back-StoryMy desktop (Win 7 32 bit) started becoming gradually more unstable. This usually manifested as mouse and keyboard freezes and then BSD’s happening more and more often at random times. Checked for malware, viruses, etc. and all was clean. Freezes etc. continued until my decision to take the unit in for a professional check/repair. Diagnosis came back as failing motherboard. I had the motherboard replaced and that also required changes to CPU (Intel Quadcore i7-4790 3.64GHz), memory (4GB installed),new Firewire interface (could not find a motherboard with one onboard), and optical drive. New motherboard is an Asus Z97-K windows 8.1 ready x64 capable. Upon getting the unit back I jumped into testing it. The initial results were that everything was working just as before the changes except for Sonar X3e Producer. Later, after more in depth testing I discovered that ALL versions of SONAR I had installed on the machine exhibited the same symptoms. All other applications were nominal and there had been no data loss. Additionally, all previously installed stand-alone synths and samplers worked perfectly. The programs were picking up my audio interface (M-Audio Firewire 2626) and making all the right noises from all the right cones. The SymptomsThe issue is that all versions of SONAR stopped running....the splash screen would display, then disappear as usual, but then...nothing! There was no error window displayed. There was no diagnostics presented at all. Literally nothing else happened.SONARPDR.exe does appear in Task Manager Processes before the splash screen appears but disappears a second or two after the splash screen disappears. The byte count in Task Manager climbs to a max of about 30,000K and the entry has usually disappeared before it goes beyond this. This max is reached after a computer restart. Subsequent attempts to start SONAR have far smaller byte counts associated. Intermittently when monitoring Task Manager I do see werfault.exe pop up on the processes screen as sonarpdr.exe disappears. It is there for less than a second. I had a look at the interface to supposedly have a look at the logs this process creates but I was not able to glean anything from what I could look at so did not investigate further......my geek-ness does have its limits..... Troubleshooting Trail So Far Cakewalk SupportSubmitted a support ticket to Cakewalk which was responded to quickly within time zone restrictions (I am in New Zealand). The rep just took me through steps that are clearly available in their knowledge base on their web site. - Version re-installs –first just X3e but then all of the versions I had installed on the machine
- Re-installation of C++ distributables
- Shutting down Start Up programs via msconfig
- Manual Re-personalization of SONAR
- Sent them System Information files twice
- Finally they cut me loose with the recommendation to reinstall on ANOTHER system.
After each of these steps the Symptoms were the same. At this point I had just X3e installed and all other versions were fully removed. Repair TechnicianI interviewed the repair tech about what he had done and/or not done during his work on the system. He is in the habit of making quite detailed notes as he does this kind or rebuild and I did a review of these with him. His notes did not have any specific mention of errors, failures, etc. And his memory of the build was “sweet as” in kiwi vernacular (translated: went well). There were only two items that came out of the interview that needed further review. The first was the fact that the onboard audio had not been disabled. The tech explained that he had tested the onboard audio and it worked, and then tested the sound card (M-Audio Revo 7.1) and it worked too. Then he tested both simultaneously and both worked. So he left both active. The other issue was the fact that he had not updated the BIOS on the motherboard. The tech explained that he never updates the BIOS on re-builds due to ‘shop policy’. A quick check during the interview found that there were 2 updates that were available since the build was done. In my book BIOS updates are a LAST OPTION kind of thing.....so I have not updated it. The tech offered –free of charge—to use a new hard drive out of their stock to replace my C: drive, to then install a fresh instance of Win 7 32bit (duplicate what I am currently running) so that I could then install SONAR X3e Producer as the only application installed to possibly eliminate a Windows cause/verify a hardware issue. This has not been done but the offer stands. What I Have Done- Retested onboard audio and sound card and confirmed what the tech had stated. Further testing was repeated with onboard only, sound card only, and both active. No issues found other than in all cases SONAR does not run.
- Restored to all previous restore points and repeated testing.
- I ran chkdsk /R on C: drive. It ran to completion with no errors/corrections.
- Used Win 7 Recovery/Repair CD to rebuild Win 7 32 bit.
- I repeated Manual Re-personalization This failed again. I saw a posting where a suggestion renaming the AUD.ini file was described. This is basically a specific form of Manual Re-personalization. I repeated renaming the AUD.ini file and activated SONAR with the following methods: normal shortcut, Opening SONARPDR.exe, double clicking on a stored Project, and each of these while holding down the Shift Key (as described in the post). On a test using a renamed AUD.ini file and activating SONAR via an existing Project with SHIFT key pressed to my GREAT surprise SONAR X3e Producer loaded, scanned for plug-ins, loaded the specified Project, and I was able to playback normally. SONAR had linked with my audio interface just as before the hardware changes. I spent a while testing basic functionality and all was well. Overjoyed at this result I closed SONAR and attempted to do it again......At this writing and after many attempts to duplicate I have not been able to reproduce the result.
- Booted Win 7 into Safe Mode and was able to get Sonar X3e Producer running! This is completely repeatable.
- Repeated shutting down all Start up programs and tested (the virus checker remains [ESET NOD 32]). Repeated shutting down all Start up programs including deactivating virus checker and tested. Upon failure as last time I did the same thing by also removing all non Microsoft processes. Upon failure I removed all Start up programs and all processes and retested. There are a few processes that remain activated when deactivating all processes setting is chosen. Based on internet research this is normal. This condition failed as well.
- I reviewed all drivers within Device Manager and confirmed that all are current/up to date except a driver for Microsoft Virtual WiFi mini-port adapter #2. When trying to update the driver Windows found a newer one but I got alerts that it was not Windows Certified along with a recommendation not to install it. So I re-ran tests with this driver deactivated. All tests failed.
To summarize: - New Motherboard was installed
- SONAR X3e Producer does not load...all SONAR versions do not load...ALL else is nominal
- Extensive testing has been done to troubleshoot
- Windows 7 seems sound
- Hard drive OK
- Drivers all current or deactivated
- SONAR runs in SAFE mode and this is repeatable.
- Fault still exists when systematically removing Start up programs AND processes.
- I have had SONAR run only once since the hardware changes and with a non-modified configuration (other than re-initiating AUD.ini) by renaming the AUD.ini file and then activating by loading a Project with Shift key pressed. This is not repeatable.
At this point I was running up against a project deadline and so I had to install SONAR X3e Producer on a backup laptop I had. The installation was done using the same set of files that I used for all the re-installs that were done in the above processes/tests. The install was flawless. I installed all the plug-ins that come with SONAR plus the few I specifically needed for my Project delivery. I got things done and delivered on time but now my mind is back to this issue. I would love to hear from someone that has a suggestion for what next to try.... What I Might Do Next....But Would Like to Avoid- Try to access and review the logs possibly created by the werfault.exe process.
- Study the AUD.ini file on the fresh install of SONAR on the spare laptop and compare with several versions that have been created through all troubleshooting described above.
- BIOS Update
- Take the unit back to the repair shop for free troubleshooting offer noted above. Based on subsequent testing and checks. I am dubious that this action will add anything new to the troubleshoot, but never say never.
- Organize myself to reinstall Windows 7 32 bit... and then tediously get all my programs and data back on the machine...but if I am committing to this level I should at least contemplate updating further.....see #6 below...
- Organize myself to do a full rebuild of the desktop....Upgrading to Win 7 x64, add more memory, and then tediously get all my programs and data back on the machine...Taking full advantage of the new motherboard...I already have the Win 7 x64 DVD....
- And since the desktop just started showing the Windows 10 icon, I guess I could jump into the early adopter pool and jump to this brand new ‘Technical Preview”....a chill just ran down my spine...........
Again, I would love to hear from someone that has a suggestion for what next to try....
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arachnaut
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/12 11:39:23
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Two things I would suggest. Open Event Viewer and clear all the log files.
Restart. Wait a few minutes until everything stabilizes and all the startup processes complete.
Load Sonar and mark the exact time.
When it fails, open the event viewer and look over any messages from that time.
See if that gives a clue.
The second thing is what I always use when faced with a messy situation: ProcMon.
This is a very powerful utility from SysInternals (part of Microsoft).
It will log every system call and registry operation by the system.
It will take a bit of time to get familiar with it, but basically you just start it up and then start Sonar.
Stop it when the crash occurs and then exclude unnecessary system calls by process name.
You will have a gazillion things to look at, but with time, this can payoff. It is mind-blowing to see all the system calls required just to open a single file.
Once you get familiar with ProcMon you will find it incredibly useful. I've used it many dozens of times, so I'm used to many patterns of system behavior. You can see that localization calls are made looking up language packs and locale info, crypto routines are loaded to decode stuff, etc. Eventually you just skim over a bunch of stuff and nail things down quickly.
Finally, by all means use a 64-bit OS. 32-bit OSes are dead. You can still run 32-bit Sonar, but why would you want to do that?
- Jim Hurley - SONAR Platinum - x64 - Windows 10 Pro ASUS P8P67 PRO Rev 3.0; Core i7-2600K@4.4GHz; 16 GB G.SKILL Ripjaws X; GeForce GT 740; Saffire Pro14 MixControl 3.7; Axiom 61 64-Bit audio, SR: 48kHz, ASIO 256 samples latency, Rec/Play I/O Buffers 512k, Total Round Trip Latency 13 ms, Pow-r 3 dither
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mudgel
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/12 11:43:05
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Wow, what an extensive and thorough post. I only hope we can live up to those same standards. BTW, welcome to the forum. Lots of good help here.
The first question I have for you is. are you running ASO4ALL? If so delete it from your system. We are finding time and again that it is causing major problems with Sonar.
Do you have an HD Audio driver for your onboard audio? Check Device Manager. If you have, disable it.
That's all I've got at the moment. If you can try one or both of those things we'll see what happens.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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cazimer
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 12:43:54
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Hi Mudgel,
Not running ASO4ALL...
HD Audio driver disabled and SONAR will still not run....
Thanks for the suggestions....
Jim
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cazimer
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 12:51:03
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Hi arachnaut,
Nothing new that I have seen using Event Viewer. In fact the only Events (2) that showed up at all were in the Security area but no error condition noted using your suggested method.
Working on gathering a couple of run attempts to do some sort of comparison using Process Monitor...comparing troublesome desktop vs laptop with a fresh install of Sonar X3e Producer. I have a filtered .csv from the laptop trial run just need to duplicate on the desktop and have a look to see what is the same and what may be different.
Thanks for your suggestions.
Jim
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dwardzala
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 12:59:59
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You stated you had to add a new firewire card to your PC - does it have the TI chip set? I have seen posts before that have indicated that other chip sets have been problematic with Sonar.
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
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slartabartfast
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 13:17:22
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☄ Helpfulby travtek 2015/06/15 21:40:50
Booted Win 7 into Safe Mode and was able to get Sonar X3e Producer running! This is completely repeatable. That suggests that this is not primarily a Sonar problem. Do you mean that Sonar just started or that it ran normally under safe mode? The main point of safe mode is to avoid loading anything but the essential drivers or services, so I would be surprised if you had audio drivers active in that mode. In any event, Sonar loading in Windows Safe Mode but crashing in full Windows suggests that Sonar is calling a defective driver or process. In safe mode you can try to un-install/delete the most likely drivers (audio interface or other audio or midi control equipment for starters). You can then try to start Sonar and if it does not crash on startup in the full Windows load, you can start re-installing the drivers one at a time. If you can get into Sonar in Windows Safe Mode, you should also make sure that Sonar is not set to open with a project or a template, which may be calling something that is broken. It is also possible that you have defective memory. Your symptoms prior to MB replacement were consistent with that. If you have very little software running on your machine, and a fully loaded Windows fills lower memory addresses and is pushed into defective addresses when Sonar is loaded, it is possible that failure would only occur when Sonar attempts to load. Since Windows Safe Mode fills much less memory it could still work. A comprehensive memory test may take hours, and might not have been done by the tech. Memtest 86+ might be worth an overnight run.
post edited by slartabartfast - 2015/06/15 13:38:18
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karhide
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 13:27:59
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Have you tried running Sonar and as the Administrator?
Studio: Sonar Platinum/Cakewalk by Bandlab Intel Core i7 32GB RAM Samsung Evo 1TB system drive Windows 10 64bit - RME FireFace UFX - Focusrite OctoPre MK II - Audient Mico Mobile: Sonar Platinum/Cakewalk by Bandlab Intel Core i7 8GB RAM Samsung Evo 1TB system drive Windows 10 64bit - RME FireFace 400 Mobile2: Cakewalk by Bandlab Intel Core i7 8GB RAM 256 GB System Drive Windows 10 64 bit http://www.karhide.co.uk/https://karhide.bandcamp.com
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tlw
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 14:25:08
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I might be wrong, but this sounds to me like either a hardware problem or a driver problem rather than a Sonar one.
Just in case it is a software problem, have you tried running Sonar without the antivirus installed? Not just with scanning turned off but the antivirus software completely removed from the PC or otherwise prevented from starting when the PC boots? If not I suggest trying that just to make sure the antivirus isn't blocking Sonar or a process Sonar calls or relies on before digging into driver issues.
You say the only hardware item changed was the motherboard. Were the correct and up to date motherboard drivers, from the manufacturer's website, installed or just the generic ones that come with Windows? If not I suggest downloading and installing them.
Another thing to try is to uninstall the video drivers then reboot so Windows uses its own VGA driver. Video driver problems can cause all sorts of issues with Windows and software.
Might also be worth re-seating the RAM and checking all the internal cables are connected properly.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 14:44:10
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Prior to your attempts at reinstalling Sonar, have you gone in and deleted the necessary registry keys?
I see no reference to this in your post and will stop Sonar dead in it's tracks
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
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cazimer
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 20:55:53
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Hi dwardzala,
The firewire card is a Digitus PCI 3 + 1 Port Firewire Card and its specs indicate that the Chipset: VIA VT6306.
Thanks for the input!..:)
Jim
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cazimer
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 21:13:02
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Hi slartabartfast,
I purposefully activated Safe Mode and then purposefully ran Sonar and it worked normally (to the extent that it could operate within Safe Mode). And I agree that this indicated that is is likely a problem with a driver, process, service, etc. This is why I then very systematically removed these potential influences via msconfig as noted in my initial post.
Initially, Sonar was set to open with a template but at this point I have re-installed so much that none of that customization is still in play any longer.
I have also done a full memory check already....just forgot to include that step in my post.....it passed.
Thanks for your suggestions...:)
Jim
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Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 21:15:23
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Run windows update several times. You could go to the Intel driver update site esp to update your chipset drivers. I would have no issues installing the latest BIOS update myself. And if you are on a 32 bit OS get off it. Cheers.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/06/15 21:21:50
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cazimer
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 21:15:45
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Hi karhide,
Yes, starting "as administrator" was a standard start option as I tested.
Thanks for checking.
Jim
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travtek
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 22:07:00
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For what it's worth, The two things that jumped out at me in your description was:
1.) You are running Win 7 32 bit and not 64 bit. Like a highway, the more lanes to travel the better. I will take 64 lanes over 32 any day.
2.) You are only running 4 GB RAM. Is your motherboard (aka mobo) maxed out or can you upgrade the RAM to the max the mobo allows? I use a system monitor program called AIDA-64 and it can display a number of system monitors including the RAM used and RAM remaining. When I load up 5-6 soft synths with only a web browser and some other things like malware and antivirus software running in the background my 8 GB ram gets chewed up pretty fast to only around 2.9 GB remaining. Using AIDA 64 I can watch the memory drain as I load new plug-ins into a cakewalk project.
Final thought. Flashing the BIOS memory is pretty easy. I believe that so long as you have the original BIOS flash file from the MOBO (check their support website) you might be able to flash it back to the original BIOS version if things turn for the worse. Similar to a System Restore in Windows.
Again these are just some thoughts. I apologize in advance if I missed a detail. Hope this helps to ponder and that you get a final resolution.
Cheers.
Intl Core 2 Quad Q9550 2.83 GHz,Win 7 SP1, ASUS P5N-D MOBO,8 GB RAM,3x4 SATA TB HD,3x22 in. HP Flat Panel Monitors,Corsair PSU,NVIDIA GeForce 9500 GT,GTX 480 graphics,M-Audio Delta 1010-LT PCI Audio Interface,Sonar PE X3,NI Kontakt 5,Vir2 VI.ONE,Electri6ity,Sony SoundForge Pro10 w/iZotope Mastering FX,AT 4040 Studio Condenser Mic,M-Audio ProKeys88SX,Peavy HKS-8 Monitors,Behringer XENIX 1622 USB Mixer,Toontrack EZ/Superior Drummer 2.0,EZmix Pro,Songwriter 1,2 & fill drum packs, 4 producer series EZmix packs,vocal,Mastering Packs
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mudgel
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/15 23:06:09
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We have to try and eliminate possible problem areas
Let's look at the FireWire card as a possible issue.
Don't connect the FireWire cable to your audio device. That eliminates the audio device and the FireWire card.
If you have a Sonar project with just recorded audio. Load it. Change your audio setting to MME drivers. Remember we want to get Sonar running even if poorly. Make sure to reroute all you outputs to the correct device and see if Sonar runs.
If it does it tells you that there is an issue with the FireWire card.
Also another thing I've not seen mentioned is Windows updates. Make sure to do them all. Not optional but recommended ones. This may require several goes and reboots before you get them all. I've had occasions where a windows update has caused Sonar not to run but not for quite a while.
I would do the eliminate the FireWire card first, but do the windows update anyway regardless of the outcome.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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dwardzala
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/16 21:53:38
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cazimer
Hi dwardzala,
The firewire card is a Digitus PCI 3 + 1 Port Firewire Card and its specs indicate that the Chipset: VIA VT6306.
Thanks for the input!..:)
Jim
That card may be the problem - mudgel above has some good advice to troubleshoot to see if it is.
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
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Anderton
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Re: Please Help --Soner X3e won't run
2015/06/16 22:07:39
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Many companies recommend the TI chipset for FireWire.
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