Helpful ReplyPlease Help - importing Video into Sonar

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RevBob
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2011/10/18 01:31:24 (permalink)

Please Help - importing Video into Sonar

Upfront - I have limited knowledge in video, and even less knowledge about macs.
I do know there are issues with mac video formats in Sonar 64bit, but I need a work around.
I need to score music for a mp4 clip about 40 seconds long done of an animation at 24fps (HD 720). How do I import/convert this so I keep frames intact (smpte) so the the time is not distorted?
I have been trying all sorts of conversion software: mpg distorts, accurate avi won't import. Please help!

Rain Computers Ion Studio Custom PC Xeon 8-core 3.1ghz processor, Win7 Pro 64x, 24gb RAM, ATI Radeon HD 5450, Sonar X2 Producer Expanded 64x, NI Komplete, Kore 2, Maschine, SoundminerHD, Adobe Premier and Audition, MOTU 828mk3, M-Audio Axiom, Event20/20 Monitors
#1
LpMike75
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/18 02:03:57 (permalink)
Hey RevBob-

    As a free option you can convert your movies using -ANY Video Converter- (AVC-Video Converter).  Just import your video and export it in a variety of formats really quickly.  I find WMV works consistantly for me so I simply go with that.  

    As a not so free option you can purchase a video editing program like Sony Vegas and have alot of options. 

Good luck


- Mike
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#2
Eric Beam
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/18 08:47:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
http://rhythminmind.net/1313/?p=1892
 
Part One – The basics
#1 Container formats.
.mov .wmv .mp4 .mp4 .avi . mkv, ect
These are not video formats. Think of these as boxes that can contain any combination of video & audio codecs
#2 codec (coder-decoder)
Example – h.264, ProRes, DV, windows media a/v, mpeg 1/2/4,  aac, mp3, (hundreds are available)

These are the encoded video/audio formats inside the container format. No codec is better than the other. Only more efficient at the same bitrate.
#3 distribution & work-picture
different Codecs are specialized for different tasks. Example – Some work best for online distribution but are horrible to use as work picture for scoring/mixing. Some are efficient to use as work-picture but are not intended to be used for distribution. It’s a balance between file size & cpu usage.
#4 What format to use with my system?


Windows OS Platform
  • Windows compliant DAW’s are designed to work best with native windows functionality.
    Windows 7 natively supports windows media a/v, mpeg 1,2,& 4, DV (wmv, mp4/h.264, ect). These are what I would recommend sticking with if on the windows platform.
    In general .AVI is obsolete & shouldn’t be used for anything other than the DV codec.
MAC OS Platform
  • The Quicktime engine is heavily integrated into the MAC OS. Native Quicktime codecs like ProRes, mp4/h.264, & DV are a good choice for work-picture
#5 I receive problematic video files from editors. How do I convert them to WMV, MP4/h.264, or Quicktime flavors?
Free/Low cost transcoding utilities.
Windows OS Platform
  • At this time the free Microsoft Expression Encoder 4 is the best tool for trans-coding quicktime.mov files into .WMV files for use with windows based DAW’s.
  • MPEG StreamClip is a must have tool for troubleshooting/transcoding video.
  • Quicktime Pro can be life saving utility. Much more then meets the eye.
MAC OS Platform
  • MPEG StreamClip is a must have tool for troubleshooting/transcoding video.
  • Quicktime Pro can be life saving utility. Much more then meets the eye.
#6 Create files with proper resolution & bitrates for efficient playback
The larger the resolution/bitrate the harder your CPU is going work.
In general I would recommend using a video width of 640 for work picture. Here is a little frame size cheat sheet.
  • 1920 x 1080 HD 16:9
  • 1280 x 720 HD 16:9
  • 960 x 540 16:9 ½ HD
  • 640 x 360 16:9
  • 640 x 480 4:3 – NTSC Square Pixel
  • 640 x 576 4:3 – PAL Square Pixel
  • 320 x 240 4:3 – ½ NTSC
ScreenShots
WMV settings with Microsoft Expression Encoder 4

More to follow & feel free to ask questions for more clarification.

"Any experiment of interest in life will be carried out at your own expense."
rhythminmind.net - signaltonoize.com - popsound.com
#3
Jimbo 88
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/18 09:27:45 (permalink)
Hey RevRob,

  Are you sure AVI does not work?  It works well for me.  I don't like using free software for a lot of reasons.  I think QuickTime Pro costs only $30.  If you get a chance to score more video clips you'll need it.  Mpeg-1 and AVI seem to work well for me and others.  Scoring to picture is a lot of fun,  you might get to really like it.

Good Luck....

 
#4
RevBob
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/18 12:16:01 (permalink)
@ LP - thanks, haven't tried that one yet

@Jimbo - AVI isn't working when converting from some mp4 files. Just won't import.I have no issue purchasing solid video software, but Quicktime is so intrusive and tries to install itunes.

@Eric - Thanks for all the info. So it seems to me then that my issue in converting these files is not the "container" but the Codecs within it. Many of these conversion programs have a lot different options for both the audio and video.
So what would be the best set of options in MEEncoder for the following criteria:
1) source file is mp4, 24 fps, 720HD
2) I need lossless conversion. Need to make sure time is not compressed or stretched so that smpte from the original is the same frame to frame - that way I can export audio back to video editor with out issue.
3) Processor power is not an issue. Do the settings default 1:1 when you first load a file?
What I don't understand is why is it I can play any of these files on my PC with WMP but can't import them to Sonar X1? Doesn't that imply that I have the right codecs installed on my system for the files in a windows format?
Thanks again!

Rain Computers Ion Studio Custom PC Xeon 8-core 3.1ghz processor, Win7 Pro 64x, 24gb RAM, ATI Radeon HD 5450, Sonar X2 Producer Expanded 64x, NI Komplete, Kore 2, Maschine, SoundminerHD, Adobe Premier and Audition, MOTU 828mk3, M-Audio Axiom, Event20/20 Monitors
#5
Jimbo 88
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/18 12:28:09 (permalink)
Hey RevRob,

 Yea, i know what you mean about Quicktime and iTunes being so intrusive.  I keep them on an older, secondary computor for that reason.  Try Sony Vegas.  It has a very cheap version that works well (for me at least).
#6
LpMike75
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/18 13:09:57 (permalink)
What I don't understand is why is it I can play any of these files on my PC with WMP but can't import them to Sonar X1? Doesn't that imply that I have the right codecs installed on my system for the files in a windows format?

 
Same issue here.  I asked Cakewalk this question and they sent me a link for some codecs (purposing my system did not have them) I trusted the link against my better judgement and it downloaded a virus and a handful of bloat programs I had to manually go through and take out of my system.  When I emailed them back informing them of the horrid link they sent me their reply was "it worked for me".  So just a heads up if you contact Cake for this issue be wary of whatever link they send you.
 
Again, WMV is the only format that works for me consistantly.  I have scored many videos converting the files from QT to WMV...scoring video in Sonar then sending music off or even importing the finished music back into QT via QT Pro.  No syching problems here.   


- Mike
Sonar Platinum - M-Audio Profire 2626 , Pro Tools 11 HD Omni - PC I7 6850K - 64 G RAM - GeForce GTX 970
http://www.soundcloud.com/michael-lizotte 
Http://WWW.HomeRecordingWizard.Com
HTTP://WWW.Facebook.com/HomeRecordingWizard
Http://www.mjlmusic.com 
#7
RevBob
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/19 01:18:10 (permalink)
@Eric - so I tried the Expression Encoder and got a nice wmv with accurate 24fps. However, X1 keeps freezing on play and stop. Not sure if this is the video or some other new issue. My PC is barely using any resources.
Also, when I try to cut and paste a clip, its cutting and pasting the markers above the clip that I have LOCKED to SMPTE.

This project is turning into a disaster. I should have all the basics down by now, and all I really have is a click track, cues that keep moving around while X1 itself won't budge.

Rain Computers Ion Studio Custom PC Xeon 8-core 3.1ghz processor, Win7 Pro 64x, 24gb RAM, ATI Radeon HD 5450, Sonar X2 Producer Expanded 64x, NI Komplete, Kore 2, Maschine, SoundminerHD, Adobe Premier and Audition, MOTU 828mk3, M-Audio Axiom, Event20/20 Monitors
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dlion16
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/19 09:26:37 (permalink)
i have sonar and vegas. truthfully, i would never try to use sonar to do audio for picture, it just doesn't handle video well enough. i'd use vegas. vegas has its roots as a multitrack audio editor - unlimited tracks, audio busses, plugins... everything you need to edit audio to picture. it's intuitive and easy to get up and running. if a given track needs more, i can always export it, edit with sonar (or sound forge), bring it back into vegas. works for me.
#9
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2011/10/19 09:30:41 (permalink)
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2018/12/23 01:32:20


#10
paulhcp
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/19 09:38:51 (permalink)
Eric,
That was a very helpful post! Thank you.

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#11
RevBob
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/20 10:34:38 (permalink)
@jimbo and dlion - thanks I'll look into Vegas. How hard is it to import projects from Sonar to Vegas and back? I would still like to do my writing in Sonar cause I like my work flow.

@LPmike - thanks for the warning!

Even though I got video to import, sync and look good as a WMV - now everything keeps freezing up and I have so many tech issues I wrote support a list of "look what I broke". I have full support from Rain on my PC and had them do a full tech pass and tune-up before I upgraded to Expanded, so I know its not my system.

Has anyone had luck with full sync with outboard video gear?
Has anyone imported/exported projects into other video software like Adobe Premiere or Final Cut?

Rain Computers Ion Studio Custom PC Xeon 8-core 3.1ghz processor, Win7 Pro 64x, 24gb RAM, ATI Radeon HD 5450, Sonar X2 Producer Expanded 64x, NI Komplete, Kore 2, Maschine, SoundminerHD, Adobe Premier and Audition, MOTU 828mk3, M-Audio Axiom, Event20/20 Monitors
#12
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2011/10/20 10:48:09 (permalink)
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2018/12/23 01:32:36


#13
DigitalArchivist
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/20 11:15:01 (permalink)
I used Windows Live Movie Maker to convert an MP4 file to WMV. I haven't had any problems so far with markers or frame rate. I'm running X1 Producer Expanded 64-bit. I wasn't aware of the Microsoft Expression Encoder, so thank you very much for that tip Eric.
#14
RevBob
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/20 11:17:11 (permalink)
@Mike - thanks, always looking for more info. Documentation on this stuff is slim to none. Strangely enough everything runs great on my machine outside of Sonar.
Questions:
1) Whats the best way to down convert to DV25 ?
2) Tell me more of this Cineform Codec - how are you using it? Which version are you using? Their site lists Studio(free), NeoScene, and Neo. (I refuse to use Neo3D and become part of the machine that feels the need to make everything 3D).

Thanks again!

Rain Computers Ion Studio Custom PC Xeon 8-core 3.1ghz processor, Win7 Pro 64x, 24gb RAM, ATI Radeon HD 5450, Sonar X2 Producer Expanded 64x, NI Komplete, Kore 2, Maschine, SoundminerHD, Adobe Premier and Audition, MOTU 828mk3, M-Audio Axiom, Event20/20 Monitors
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The Maillard Reaction
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. 2011/10/20 11:17:58 (permalink)
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2018/12/23 01:32:49


#16
RevBob
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/20 11:26:45 (permalink)
It would be nice to work with 720 in house. I can always export as broadcast wav and sync to SMPTE outside of Sonar for 1080. Honestly I used Eric's settings above (640) and it looks good but runs like crap.

I am really looking for a solid solution to work into my current workflow, so I don't have to do this Trial & Error = Epic Fail x 4 Days

Rain Computers Ion Studio Custom PC Xeon 8-core 3.1ghz processor, Win7 Pro 64x, 24gb RAM, ATI Radeon HD 5450, Sonar X2 Producer Expanded 64x, NI Komplete, Kore 2, Maschine, SoundminerHD, Adobe Premier and Audition, MOTU 828mk3, M-Audio Axiom, Event20/20 Monitors
#17
DigitalArchivist
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/20 11:27:27 (permalink)
Just wanted to add that the current (as of October 20, 2011) link for the free version of the Microsoft Expression Engine Encoder is http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=24601 - this link is for the Encoder with Service Pack 1. The link Eric provided states a couple of times that the SP1 version is the most current.
#18
RevBob
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/20 11:42:09 (permalink)
@Digital Archivist - beware: Expression requires install of MS Net framework, which uses resources and can't just be turned off.
I installed it on my office computer to convert files, but won't install it on my Studio PC - cause I keep that box clean...

Rain Computers Ion Studio Custom PC Xeon 8-core 3.1ghz processor, Win7 Pro 64x, 24gb RAM, ATI Radeon HD 5450, Sonar X2 Producer Expanded 64x, NI Komplete, Kore 2, Maschine, SoundminerHD, Adobe Premier and Audition, MOTU 828mk3, M-Audio Axiom, Event20/20 Monitors
#19
Jim Roseberry
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/20 12:16:15 (permalink)
@Digital Archivist - beware: Expression requires install of MS Net framework, which uses resources and can't just be turned off. I installed it on my office computer to convert files, but won't install it on my Studio PC - cause I keep that box clean...

 
If you're running Win7, .Net is already on your machine.  

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#20
DigitalArchivist
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Re:Please Help - importing Video into Sonar 2011/10/20 12:22:06 (permalink)
Thanks RevBob. I already have the .NET framework installed. My machine is a two-year old Gateway desktop with a 1st gen i5 processor & 8GB of RAM running Win 7 Home Premium 64-bit. I only used the Expression Encoder to convert the MP4 to WMV following the very helpful specs that Eric provided and then exited the program. It actually gave me a more accurate conversion, probably because my settings were off originally, than what Windows Live Movie Maker gave me. Of course all my existing markers are off now so I'm adjusting them.

One tip I got from Cakewalk Support because of some crashes I was experiencing was to reset the audio configuration file. This is what I was told (I think this info is available through their knowledgebase too).

With SONAR closed:

1) Hold down the [Shift] and [Ctrl] keys.
2) Double click on the SONAR icon.
3) When prompted to re-personalize settings click [Yes]
4) SONAR will now open. Do not load a project.
5) Go to Edit | Preferences
6) Locate the section labeled Audio | Configuration file.
7) Click on the [Reset Config to Defaults...] button and then click [Yes] to proceed.
8) Click the [Apply] then [Close] buttons.

At this point please open your project and test.


-END-
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