mlockett
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Please critique "The Dream"
Prog'ish hard rock. I'm looking for comments about all aspects, from composition, to performance, to production. I'd also be curious to hear the thoughts of any "real" sax players about the brief sax parts. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=44542
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walrusman
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/09 07:28:03
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Well, the only negative thing I could come up with was the drums could really use some life to them. They sound very machine like and underneath everything, rather than driving the whole thing. But hey, nobody likes my mixing either so what can I say?
The song is cool. I love the verse melody the most and I really enjoyed the structure. Excellent transition to the lighter parts with the sax. Unpredictable music and structure is the most enjoyable to listen to and this song has both.
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variaxman
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/09 14:31:50
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First thing that struck me was the vocals...I really liked the delivery/style,for some reason reminds me of Ronnie James Dio!The "dreamy" interlude is real cool .I agree the drums are kinda flat sounding,not sure if its due to the 128kbs compression ...just not that much dynamics to them.I thought the "sax" sounded pretty cool at the end...loop?
Cool tune..I dig it!!
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rolo95
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/09 15:21:08
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hI YAAA MIKE long time no c hey i was listening... to the song ( office cans no big deal) and i like it... the crunchy guitar ritmic tones remainds me of the CARS...lol great.. hey...whith what you make the sax.... dont sound toooo synth..( well im not a horn player...) but sound very very decent... I like it... ahhhhh i was forgeting and the end... just before the solo sal enters.... the rythim guitar makes some off time strums... sloopy to me... but chek pls... Greets Rolo.
post edited by rolo95 - 2005/08/09 15:27:24
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TRicks
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/09 16:18:32
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Would like to hear the drums more involved also, more presence. Vocals go with the chord progression well. The synth-vocal-lead guitar passage without the drums is a cool idea. The sax is a good idea in general at the end like that. It might be good to add some more sax during the synth-vocal interludes as well. MAybe some more licks from the bass when its on its own in that break around 01:05. Its a bit empty there in those nanoseconds where the bass is on its own. There could be a nice litttle tasty lick thrown in there. Perhaps a little more variation on the drum rolls, they seem pretty similar. I dig the song structure. NIce use of an intro, interlude and outro. Very Cool.
post edited by TRicks - 2005/08/09 16:24:06
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BlindDog
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/09 16:41:03
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Love the imagination in building this song, man. Nice job. Intro is nice and wide, but when the guitar comes in it's pretty bass heavy, you might consider rolling off a little of the low end bass and sparkling up the drums and guitars a bit. The vox is also sitting a bit back in the mix; I'm not catching all the words in the verse.
Right around 3:00 the bass seems a bit closer to where it should be. Still not sure of the EQ tho.
Nice blowin' at the end, dude! Keep it up!
-Kevin Accidents "happen". Success, however, is planned and executed.
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Dazed
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/09 16:52:44
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Loved the change up at 1:26 and where it repeats later. The vocals are a great fit for the style of music being played. I do not hear the Dio comparison but more of a David Bowie vocal style.
My only suggestion would be to liven the chorus up a bit. There is not a lot of seperation from the verse being played.
Good track!
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mlockett
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/09 18:04:09
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Walrusman
Thanks for the listen. It sound unanimous that the drums could use more life. They were programmed, of course. I may give it a shot on the V-Drums and see if I can keep time.
variaxman (slipperman)
Strange... I've heard the Dio comparison a few times lately... it used to alway be Bowie (like Dazed said). I'd like to blame the drums on the compression, but I think the problem is the programmer/engineer. I just need to spend some more time on them and get other good input. For some reason, my ears just don't hear drum parts well. The sax is actually me playing the real thing; I got it a couple weeks ago... never played one before. I didn't really intend to use it this soon but thought it would go well in the song. Thanks for the input! ...and thanks for the comments on the SoundClick site.
rolo
Hey Rolo... good to hear from you!
The Cars... Wow... I haven't heard that in a while. The sax is the real deal... it's just not a real experienced player <g>. I played it, and to my ears it sound decent, but a real sax player might have a different opinion; I think I stayed reasonably within my limited capabilities. I'll check the guitar at the end... I definitely get sloppy at times with the rhythm.
Thanks for the comments!!!!
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mlockett
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/09 18:14:19
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TRicks
Thanks for listening. The sax does the lead in the first interlude (or whatever you call it), then the second is guitar. Maybe with a little more practice and confidence, I could extend the sax part a little. At this point I'm a rookie just trying to get my feet wet. <g> I debated back and forth on whether I should put some more bass (or something else) in that break... it's definitely thin, but I thought I should leave a bit of space. Thinking about it now, if I could do the quick run that I did witrh the guitar, but do it on bass instead that would be really interesting. Thanks again!
Kevin
Hey Kevin,
Mixing last night, I turned the bass up, then turned it down, then up again... just never could seem to get it right where I wanted it (same with the vox). I may take another crack at the bass track itself and play it with a pick to get a little more percussive sound and control the lows a little better... then maybe add a high pass filter to the guitars. I need to check it out on some other systems. It seemed pretty balanced on my Mackies, but that could just be that I had been listening too long. Thanks again for the input.
Dazed
Thanks Dazed. I'm amazed at how often I get the Bowie comparison... it doesn't register to me, but I've heard it so many times, especially on my earlier recordings...
Hmm... maybe when I liven up the drums the chorus will become more distinctive from the verses... or I might try adding some subtle pads. I'll have to give it another listen with your thoughts in mind. To me they sound quite distinct but I'm not exactly an objective third party listener (not to mention I've listened to this song till I'm sick of it <g>).
Thanks to all for all the constructive feedback!!!
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kiwisdontdrinktea
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/09 22:49:50
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Sounds like you had a lot of fun with this song.
OK just MHO and maybe not relevant as I am still new to this.
1. Song writing. The vocal line, guitar line and bassline are all very similar (except for the prog rockish bits). The song sounds like it could be quite theatrical to watch performed. I think you need a guitar part meandering through the song just to spruce it up a bit.
2. The drums were a bit mundane, basically a steady beat on teh hi-hast with soem machine gun snare rolls and i think you do the same rolls on some toms (not sure). The snare sounded a bit wimpy were you using a low velocity?
Honestly I am not blown away by this song. But I really did like the prog rock bits. I think the song would work better live than recorded as is. Some of your other songs captured me better because they usually did mor eon the guitar.
Cheers Mike
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rolo95
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/10 10:49:20
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rolo
Hey Rolo... good to hear from you!
The Cars... Wow... I haven't heard that in a while. The sax is the real deal... it's just not a real experienced player <g>. I played it, and to my ears it sound decent, but a real sax player might have a different opinion; I think I stayed reasonably within my limited capabilities. I'll check the guitar at the end... I definitely get sloppy at times with the rhythm.
Thanks for the comments!!!! Ohhhh thats why the sax....sound so good... its a SAX... lol... Great song.... man... Just fix those sprinkles here and there and you have a winner.... ( gonna tell you a secret,.,... im fan of yours.....love "no conection" )..... still have on my HD your and Chaz mixes.... Kind Regards.... Rolo.
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Rasmuth
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/10 13:06:23
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You write some very intelligent lyrics...not the first time I thought of this with your songs.
I can hear the Cars, Dio and Bowie and others before have already stated....pretty diverse I'd say.
btw...I thought the sax sounded pretty sweet..nice job with that, I envy you...having the instrument such a short time and already having such a capability of playing it.
good track, I really liked it.
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mlockett
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/10 15:06:14
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kiwi
Thanks for the input. The bass rhythm guitar, and lead(ish) guitar all play the same parts in the verse, and the vocals are sort of a harmony, all with similar timing. I've been trying to write a little simpler stuff, but maybe this arrangement is too simple... boring. Maybe mixing up that single-note guitar some instead of mirroring the other instruments might make it more interesting. I'll have to apply some more thought. The snares were probably averaging 100 for the velocity with variations; I probably just botched the EQ on them. I sincerely appreciate your honest feedback.
rolo
Hey Rolo... thanks for the compliments. One of these days when I have some time, I'm going to do another version of "No Connection" to get it where I want it. I'm afraid at times my ambitions surpass my talents... hopefully my talent will catch up.
rasmuth
Thanks for the kind words. All these comparisons blow my mind, but I've heard each of them before, all three of them from multiple unrelated sources (I also got two independant Meatloaf comparison on my last song.) I think the trick with the sax was playing something simple; the sax just has such a full sound, it seems like you don't have to play incredibly well to make a good track.
Thanks again for all the feedback!!
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kiwisdontdrinktea
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/10 23:38:32
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ORIGINAL: mlockett
kiwi
Thanks for the input. The bass rhythm guitar, and lead(ish) guitar all play the same parts in the verse, and the vocals are sort of a harmony, all with similar timing. I've been trying to write a little simpler stuff, but maybe this arrangement is too simple... boring. Maybe mixing up that single-note guitar some instead of mirroring the other instruments might make it more interesting. I'll have to apply some more thought. The snares were probably averaging 100 for the velocity with variations; I probably just botched the EQ on them. I sincerely appreciate your honest feedback.
rolo
Hey Rolo... thanks for the compliments. One of these days when I have some time, I'm going to do another version of "No Connection" to get it where I want it. I'm afraid at times my ambitions surpass my talents... hopefully my talent will catch up.
rasmuth
Thanks for the kind words. All these comparisons blow my mind, but I've heard each of them before, all three of them from multiple unrelated sources (I also got two independant Meatloaf comparison on my last song.) I think the trick with the sax was playing something simple; the sax just has such a full sound, it seems like you don't have to play incredibly well to make a good track.
Thanks again for all the feedback!!
No connection is a very good song! I was thinking about your comment on trying to write simpler and then thought that perhaps I should think of this song as part of a CD. The intent might then be to just mix things up a bit, to change the style, give the listener a nice break. In that context it might be better to keep it simple. Just musing. cheers.
post edited by kiwisdontdrinktea - 2005/08/10 23:49:30
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metaprog
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/11 05:34:25
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Nice piece of prog. Are you an Enchant fan, by any chance?
The vocals are slightly too "alternative" for my taste, especially near the beginning. I did like what you did vocally with your little "forever beautiful" bridge, and I thought the vocals were better at the end, for whatever reason.
Are you on the Cprog list, Mike?
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mlockett
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/11 15:18:34
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ORIGINAL: metaprog
Nice piece of prog. Are you an Enchant fan, by any chance?
The vocals are slightly too "alternative" for my taste, especially near the beginning. I did like what you did vocally with your little "forever beautiful" bridge, and I thought the vocals were better at the end, for whatever reason.
Are you on the Cprog list, Mike?
Thanks for the comments Tim. I'm not familiar with Enchant, and I'm not on the Cprog list; it sounds like a list I might like... what is the Cprog list?
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metaprog
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/11 15:46:19
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ORIGINAL: mlockett
I'm not familiar with Enchant, and I'm not on the Cprog list; it sounds like a list I might like... what is the Cprog list?
Enchant is a moderately prog rock band - less jazz/or and classical than a lot of prog, but still quite complex. Your arrangement and "feel" reminded me a lot of them. The Cprog list is a Yahoogroups Christian progressive rock list. Lots of discussion about prog on a general level, but a great many of the members are also prog musicians. Pretty cool. If you go into Yahoogroups and look for christianprog, you should be able to find how to sign up. If you have any difficulties, give me a shout at tim @ timgallant.org.
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mewsician2
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/11 18:15:25
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I never listen to this style anymore, but I liked the interlude a lot, and the theme is pretty cool. I like the lyrics. There's a lively feel to it that I like too. 
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mlockett
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/13 21:49:11
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Thanks for the comments Stephen.
To all... I just put up another version making some changes to the drums, retracked the guitars, retracked the bass and remixed.
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DarrylCoy
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/14 10:06:11
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I just put up another version making some changes to the drums, retracked the guitars, retracked the bass and remixed. Mike, I hear a pop at :22. I'm not a big fan of the guitar tone, but this is a subjective thing. I like the change at 1:27 The vocals are pretty good. Nice work. Darryl
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luvligirl2005
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/14 12:57:38
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I think the music sounds good and well mixed. I like the drums not that synthy and the guitar chord progression is good, orignial. I also like the middle with the strings and brass etc. I think it sounds original. I like it.
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nprime
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/14 13:15:15
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I don't have any performance issues. This isn't really my style, so I can't say how it stacks up to similiar stuff.
The mix is oddly flat and one dimensional, until the breaks, which sound quite good. I suspect overcompression of the signal may be the culprit, my meters are pretty much pinned here for most of the song (except the breaks). Try backing off the compression a bit if you can.
The drums are very flat and lifleless, as already mentioned. I don't think it's a programming issue though, more like an EQ problem. give the snare some snap somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 KHz, and the kik needs a bit of presence at around 4 KHz.
The guitar may be a bit too forward, it just doesn't sit right in the mix. I would try a high pass filter rolling off below about 150-200 Hz(experiment). I would also roll off some of the extreme lows on the bass, try a gentle slope starting around 80-120 Hz, it's causing mud and probably sucking some of the dynamics out of the song by kicking your overall compression in too hard.
What are you using for monitors? Your overall mix seems somewhat dull on my system. (oddly enough, the breaks sound good).
Hope this is helpfull.
R
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mlockett
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/14 17:49:45
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Darryl
Thanks darryl, and thanks for the heads-up about the pop. Guitar tones are highly subjective, and I'll probably change my mind in a week or two (I do on a regular basis). I also find it tricky to make these high-gain, rectifier types sounds sit in the mix; they just don't seem to want to play second fiddle to anything else.
Luvligirl
Thanks for the kind words! I just check out you're music as well. Very nice.
nprime
First thanks for commenting, even though it's not your style of music; I respect that. I don't haver much compression on the master though I am using a high gain setting with Voxengo Elephant, I'll make an adjustment and see if that helps any. I could also try using a little less comp on the drums.
I'll try your suggestions on EQing the drums.
I already have a high pass on the guitar set around 300 which I added between the first version and second (though I'm guessing your 'hearing the second version). I rasied the volume up and down some many times with the guitar and have never been happy for more than a half hour. I'll also give the high pass on the bass a try.
I'm listening thru Mackie HR824s, so the problem is more likely my ears (or ear fatigue).
Thanks much for your well-thought-out comments; they're very much appreciated.
Mike
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nprime
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/14 18:27:44
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I'm listening thru Mackie HR824s, so the problem is more likely my ears (or ear fatigue).
...or your room... R
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mlockett
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/15 00:43:58
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ORIGINAL: nprime
I'm listening thru Mackie HR824s, so the problem is more likely my ears (or ear fatigue).
...or your room...
R
Or both... I haven't really spent much time treating my room, so I should really put that next on my list. I also find that when I listen to something for too long, my ear adapts... even if it's weak, my ear will accept it after awhile (just like a bad odor). I did pretty much allthe changes that you metioned (with my own adjustments of course). IMHO, it already sounds significantly better. Then I went thru and just started removing plug-ins... anytime I could find a really good reason for them... I ended up with a better sound and went from 73% to 63% CPU usage. That's cool. I guess in the back of my mind, I feel like if I've spent all this money on plugs, and I don't use everyone of them on every song, on multiple trakcs, I'm just wasting money.  I just posted a newer version, that I think is a huge improvement (hopefully I'll think the same tomorrow when I listen with fresh ears). Thanks again!
post edited by mlockett - 2005/08/15 00:50:27
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Abbey
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/15 00:52:42
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Real nice arrangement Mike. I agree with the with those above about the drums. Possibly could be brought back just a pinch with a little more reverb.
Jeff
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michael japan
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/15 01:07:25
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are you frustrated, angry?  Seriously, I think you have captured the feel but I would think it is "frustrating" to try and do this genre without a drummer. I don't want to wear out the drummer subject, but with your voice and guitar playing I think a drummer would really bring this up many more notches. A drummer that is a drummer that loves drums and thinks like a drummer type of drummer. Voice could use a little tuning. Good show.
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mlockett
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/15 02:39:39
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Abbey Thanks for the comments. I think tomorrow evening when my ears are fresh, I'll recheck where the drums are in the mix... I had verb on the snare, the took it off... I probably shouldn't have second guessed myself on it. PS. Just checked out Di Ingins a 'comin... though I don't have a clue about the title , the jazzy, fusion chops were great! Michael ORIGINAL: michael japan
are you frustrated, angry? Seriously, I think you have captured the feel but I would think it is "frustrating" to try and do this genre without a drummer. I don't want to wear out the drummer subject, but with your voice and guitar playing I think a drummer would really bring this up many more notches. A drummer that is a drummer that loves drums and thinks like a drummer type of drummer. Voice could use a little tuning.
Good show.
Frustrated? I thought this was a sweet little song. It's really intended to sound "intently resolved" rather than "frustrated." (My last post "Where I Am"--that was frustrated. And yes, the whole drum-thing is quite frustrating; it's like trying to understand sight when you're a blind man. When I listen to music, I just don't really notice the drums (unless they're really bad). For some reason, I don't have a feel for how they should sound (EQ, comp, etc.) or what they should be playing. (I think I'm missing a certain gene.) Finding a real drummer would get me half-way there. Of course ultimately, I'd really like for my ears to comprehend what those crazy drummers are doing<g>... my guess is that my guitar playing, etc. would improve, if I had better ears and understanding of the groove. Yes... I just noticed the pitch problems after reposting... I think after cleaning up the mix a bit, it exposed other problem areas. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
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metaprog
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/15 03:10:42
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ORIGINAL: mlockett
And yes, the whole drum-thing is quite frustrating; it's like trying to understand sight when you're a blind man. When I listen to music, I just don't really notice the drums (unless they're really bad). For some reason, I don't have a feel for how they should sound (EQ, comp, etc.) or what they should be playing. (I think I'm missing a certain gene.)
Wow, Mike, you have just described me to a T. Only, I can tell from your recording that my problem is a much greater affliction than yours - you don't seem to have any problem with timing! 
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reallifer
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RE: Please critique "The Dream"
2005/08/17 02:19:25
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Hi Mike, I finally got around to listening at home. Still sounds like the Cars here...its the guitar and vocals. I think your ready to fork out some big bucks and get the pro-mixing plugins, etc....its just money. Troy
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