Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :)

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adamlewis723
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2009/09/02 20:39:24 (permalink)

Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :)

Hello all,

OK so i set up my DAW i am in a rectangle room with hard floors... i have furniture everywhere... i am going AGAINST popular opinion and put the setup on the LONG wall... not the short one because of furniture placement reasons.   Anyway... it sounds sooo hollow in here, i CANT work like this!  It is sooo bad....   I dont know what to do.   Should I buy a huge area rug?  I tried putting down blankets but it didnt work :(

I dont know what to do.  I cant really bother with bass traps and things since this a small studio apt.  would moving it along the short wall REALLY make a difference? Its still a big hard wood floored room with high ceilings.

Thanks!
Adam

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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/02 21:02:52 (permalink)
    Yeah...
    turn yourself 90 degrees and stay off the wall you are facing, but not such that your speakers are the same distance from the back and side walls.
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    adamlewis723
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/02 21:05:27 (permalink)
    Wait i am confused... are you saying move my monitors against the short wall?  When I say against, i know not right on the wall but a foot or two off. 

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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/02 21:07:35 (permalink)
    Yup, just as long as your speakers aren't the same foot or two from the side walls. It will be a challenge anyway, but you don't need to make it worse than it has to be.
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    adamlewis723
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/02 23:38:59 (permalink)
    Hmmm ok i will do the move tomorrow and update here :)   Would an area rug help?

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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/02 23:58:23 (permalink)
    It might, but if you don't have money to throw at the problem you're going to have to experiment until you make the space useful for you.
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    edentowers
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 03:12:03 (permalink)
    I'm tempted to say that if you "can't really bother with bass traps and things" then you shouldn't really bother asking for advice here. So I have.

    Unfortunately my friend they are probably the answer. I'm sure you can come up with enough cash to buy some slabs of owens-corning or rockwool and just wrap them in some cheap hessian/burlap. Then hang them on the walls on picture hooks, especially across corners, and preferably with a couple of inches gap behind them. You may even want to have a few on the ceiling.

    If you get coloured hessian you can even pretend that they're some kind of modern art thing. But I guarantee you'll get some noticeable improvement.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 03:56:21 (permalink)
    Might help to know your room dimensions.

    The word "rectangular" is a little too vague.

    10' x 9' is rectangular but so is 30' x 18' and these 2 hypothetical room sizes would call for radically different treatments.

    Ceiling height is also important.


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    adamlewis723
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 09:29:02 (permalink)



    Sorry i should have posted this before.  Here is my current set up and it sounds sooo hollow.  Should I move it in the kitchen?  hehe.  I dont care, as long as my sound is TIGHT :)

    Oh ceiling height is about 8.5 feet high.

    Well since I only have one living space, i really don't want to set up bass traps... I know its not perfection but ive worked in other rooms before without traps and it sounded good enough.

    Thank You,
    Adam



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    skullsession
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 10:08:50 (permalink)
    That's a beautiful size room to mix in.

    As stated above, if it SOUNDS bad, then you'll have to fix it with acoustic treatment.  I just don't see any other way around it.

    You CAN build 703-style traps that look nice.  They can be temporary - moved with you when you move.  AND, you will always need them wherever you go.  If it's a matter of cash, then maybe build them one at a time as you can afford them.

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    Beagle
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 11:23:02 (permalink)
    but your daw should be on that LEFT wall, not the top one.  the speakers should be pointing down the long end of the room, not the short end.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 12:29:42 (permalink)
    Beagle


    but your daw should be on that LEFT wall, not the top one.  the speakers should be pointing down the long end of the room, not the short end.

    Yep - spot on Beagle.
     
    You need as much LENGTH as possible so that the REFLECTIONS getting back to your mixing position are minimised as much as possible.
    A moderate amount of trapping on your walls and in the corners will help enormously.
     
    Please, don't think you can skimp on this because you can't.
     
    Which way does the door open at the bottom right by the window?
    If it opens inwards to your main room, you can attach a piece of acoustic foam directly to the door so that when the door's shut, the foam forms an angle between the 2 walls. This won't be possible if it opens outwards.
     
    I'd KILL for a room that size.

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    Dave King
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 14:26:14 (permalink)
    Build about 8 or 10 of these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyYUpkpL0gw and place them strategically.  It will make a world of difference.  They work great for me.

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    Beagle
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 15:35:11 (permalink)
    also make sure that big set of windows at the bottom of the drawing have curtains on them at least and close them for mixing and recording.  the window does not act the same for sound as it does for sight!  it reflects a lot of sound back into the room, closed curtains will help reduce that a lot.

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    foxwolfen
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 16:36:17 (permalink)
    Try putting the daw in the bottom left corner with the speakers aimed toward the kitchen. It will give you the maximum length and the reflections will be non-direct and mostly below threshold. You may end up with bass buildup in the kitchen and stairwell, but who cares? It is not there for listening to as a family, it is there for mixing.

    A heavy area rug will help as will some ceiling treatment (or even on the walls). You are complaining about hollowness (which is a mid range phenomenon), not boominess, so bass traps may be unnecessary. You just need to tame the reflective surfaces (but not anechoic - we do want some ambiance to remain).

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    adamlewis723
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 19:38:17 (permalink)
    So i did the move to the left side wall.. and still the same thing :(   The daw in the corner wont work bc i dont have an angled desk.  I think its just the room :(

    Im wondering if its the open area to the Dressing Room and Kitchen?

    -Adam

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    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 20:32:13 (permalink)
    You need acoustic panels. That's ultimately what it comes down to. Watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/wa...hg&feature=related

    Just moving your listening position won't reduce the reflections in the room if there is nothing in the room to stop reflections in the first place. You can quite easily make temporary bass traps and high frequency absorption panels that you can move to your hearts content. That's what this comes down to.


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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/03 21:39:11 (permalink)
    Beagle


    but your daw should be on that LEFT wall, not the top one.  the speakers should be pointing down the long end of the room, not the short end.


    It should on the left end, not the left wall unless there is absolutely no other way to do it.
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/04 08:34:55 (permalink)
    If that was my room..... and it sounded hollow.... before moving the gear (yeah I know the popular consensus is "move the gear")  put some curtains on the window and close the curtains...spread them so nobody can see in. That does 2 things.... keeps people outside from seeing the gear (thieves) and also starts some sound absorbing. Get a rug on the hardwood floor. Hang some blankets ( a temporary measure) on the walls on the 2 side walls and the wall behind the gear.

    Right now, you do have a big echo chamber. Any time you have 2 parallel surfaces and place a sound source between them, the sound WILL bounce  back & forth. Add the floor & ceiling to the mix and the 4 walls.... man..... I know that will sound "hollow" even loaded with furniture. The furniture can only do so much.  By installing sound absorbing materials on 3 of the surfaces.... floor, window wall, and stairway wall...at least to start.... you should hear an immediate difference in the room...even using such lowly materials as a blanket.  Using a plant, like a ficus tree will add some ambience to the room and also diffuse a bit more of the sound...I'd put it in the center of the flat wall to the left..... just don't forget to water it from time to time.

    When you get the room sounding better..... then as you can do so, buy the permanent solution materials.


    edit: my studio room.... see if this don't make your hair curl..... the room is about 15x15, carpeted, pretty much 4 bare walls...windows used to have curtains, we redecorated and now they have shades..the pull down kind..... the ceiling is the 12"x12" fiber board tiles with paint on them..... the studio & monitors are in the corner of the room and the monitors are: one is on a shelf in front of a window....the other is inside a cabinet on a shelf..... common thought is don't place monitors against a wall or in a cabinet..... my sub is on the floor beside  the wall.  That's my studio.... despite the disadvantages, I am able to turn out some pretty decent sounding mixes.  But I think one reason is the room does not sound hollow. There is enough stuff in the room (work desk, rolltop desk, keyboard rack) to break up the reflections and the carpet and the ceiling tiles help to absorb the remaining echos pretty quickly.

    Note: the room below my studio was also re-decorated. Right now it only has carpet and the same type ceiling and one chest of drawers.... and when I walk through it, it sounds "empty/hollow". The only thing that is missing from this room is 3 fabric covered upholstered chairs.  Little things will make a big difference at times...
    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2009/09/04 08:46:34

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    Beagle
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/04 10:16:48 (permalink)
    10Ten


    Beagle


    but your daw should be on that LEFT wall, not the top one.  the speakers should be pointing down the long end of the room, not the short end.


    It should on the left end, not the left wall unless there is absolutely no other way to do it.


    If you are saying that the speakers shouldn't be up against the wall, then I agree, that's not what I meant by putting the DAW against the left wall - I meant position it at the left wall, not push it up against the left wall.  sorry if I was unclear.

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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/04 10:22:14 (permalink)
    Beagle


    10Ten


    Beagle


    but your daw should be on that LEFT wall, not the top one.  the speakers should be pointing down the long end of the room, not the short end.


    It should on the left end, not the left wall unless there is absolutely no other way to do it.


    If you are saying that the speakers shouldn't be up against the wall, then I agree, that's not what I meant by putting the DAW against the left wall - I meant position it at the left wall, not push it up against the left wall.  sorry if I was unclear.
    No worries, I just wanted to clarify it for the OP.


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    foxwolfen
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/04 12:51:38 (permalink)
    Guitarhacker


    If that was my room..... and it sounded hollow.... before moving the gear (yeah I know the popular consensus is "move the gear")  put some curtains on the window and close the curtains...spread them so nobody can see in. That does 2 things.... keeps people outside from seeing the gear (thieves) and also starts some sound absorbing. Get a rug on the hardwood floor. Hang some blankets ( a temporary measure) on the walls on the 2 side walls and the wall behind the gear.

    Right now, you do have a big echo chamber. Any time you have 2 parallel surfaces and place a sound source between them, the sound WILL bounce  back & forth. Add the floor & ceiling to the mix and the 4 walls.... man..... I know that will sound "hollow" even loaded with furniture. The furniture can only do so much.  By installing sound absorbing materials on 3 of the surfaces.... floor, window wall, and stairway wall...at least to start.... you should hear an immediate difference in the room...even using such lowly materials as a blanket.  Using a plant, like a ficus tree will add some ambience to the room and also diffuse a bit more of the sound...I'd put it in the center of the flat wall to the left..... just don't forget to water it from time to time.

    When you get the room sounding better..... then as you can do so, buy the permanent solution materials.


    edit: my studio room.... see if this don't make your hair curl..... the room is about 15x15, carpeted, pretty much 4 bare walls...windows used to have curtains, we redecorated and now they have shades..the pull down kind..... the ceiling is the 12"x12" fiber board tiles with paint on them..... the studio & monitors are in the corner of the room and the monitors are: one is on a shelf in front of a window....the other is inside a cabinet on a shelf..... common thought is don't place monitors against a wall or in a cabinet..... my sub is on the floor beside  the wall.  That's my studio.... despite the disadvantages, I am able to turn out some pretty decent sounding mixes.  But I think one reason is the room does not sound hollow. There is enough stuff in the room (work desk, rolltop desk, keyboard rack) to break up the reflections and the carpet and the ceiling tiles help to absorb the remaining echos pretty quickly.

    Note: the room below my studio was also re-decorated. Right now it only has carpet and the same type ceiling and one chest of drawers.... and when I walk through it, it sounds "empty/hollow". The only thing that is missing from this room is 3 fabric covered upholstered chairs.  Little things will make a big difference at times...


    Yep, not far from what I do. Only...

    I got hardwood floors.

    The only time it sounds hollow in here is when you yell. Then the room starts to ring a little.

    What may be the difference is I live in a 65 year old building. The walls are plaster not dry wall, so they tend to not resonate much. Drywall on the other hand, is a lot more flexible. In many ways a dry wall will become a sound chamber and a passive radiator.

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    adamlewis723
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    Re:Please help me with my ECHO CHAMBER :) 2009/09/16 09:58:37 (permalink)
    Thanks guys, i will try adding some furniture and acoustic paneling to the room...  It will take me a while to do it, but i will come back and post my reply here.

    Thanks alot!
    _Adam

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