200bpm
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Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
Google documentation is all over the place on old versions. I have X3 producer and am learning the free platinum.
My old sequencer, you would turn audio objects into groove clips and then you just change the tempo of the project and it will speed up or slow down audio and midi tracks, all in sync.
Please give me a link for the best and most current documentation for doing this in Sonar. The other seqencer could do this in 2008, so I'm assuming Sonar can do this or some variation of it now in 2016.
The problem is that searches find old methods and there are references to multiple ways of doing this. Groove clips, melodyne, v-vocal, audiosnap, etc etc etc. Its confusing and disorganized.
I tried using clip editor and it used transient detection which doesnt work with complex audio.
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Resonant Serpent
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/03 21:52:08
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Are you trying to stretch one or several audio clips, or an entire track?
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Anderton
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/03 22:14:58
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Yes, there are indeed multiple ways. I'd recommend: - DSP time stretching for a permanent stretch (click on edge while holding Ctrl and drag).
- Acidization (groove clips) for when there are tempo change markers. This hasn't changed for years, so you're okay with 2008 documentation.
- AudioSnap when stretching small sections to do, for example, quantization.
I agree that even though the documentation describes what these do, it doesn't present an overview of which method to use for particular types of applications, or the relative merits/applications of the different approaches. FWIW I also did a tip on how to do pseudo-REX stretching in SONAR.
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brundlefly
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/04 02:57:54
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If you want to easily set all audio in a project to follow tempo changes when nothing already acidized/groove-clipped, Audiosnap is the way to go. I just posted this yesterday: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3379912 MIDI will automatically follow tempo changes so you don't need to do anything for MIDI tracks.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/04 04:04:40
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Results are pretty mixed if you have a full project with a bunch of audio tracks of different instruments, beats and vocals. If your "other sequencer" was Ableton Live, don't expect similar results.
For specific applications there are great tools though, of which Anderton outlined a few.
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200bpm
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/05 16:06:49
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Anderton
Yes, there are indeed multiple ways. I'd recommend:
- DSP time stretching for a permanent stretch (click on edge while holding Ctrl and drag).
- Acidization (groove clips) for when there are tempo change markers. This hasn't changed for years, so you're okay with 2008 documentation.
- AudioSnap when stretching small sections to do, for example, quantization.
I agree that even though the documentation describes what these do, it doesn't present an overview of which method to use for particular types of applications, or the relative merits/applications of the different approaches.
FWIW I also did a tip on how to do pseudo-REX stretching in SONAR.
DSP Time stretching just doesnt work for me!!! I get the yellow edge, click and stretch, but all it does is create a darker grey area to the right of the clip. It doesnt change the audio. This is why I have been confounded by this and dumpster diving through old documentation. Super frustrating.
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200bpm
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/05 16:17:19
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THIS (below) is the problem with sonar dicumentation. A whole page on creating Groove clips and NOTHING in the entire (*&^ page that explains how to actually create a groove clip. https://www.cakewalk.com/...p;help=Looping.09.html Apparently the yellow click edge is not working because its already a groove clip. Why the hell dont they disable yellow edge if its already a groove clip and fixing the damn documentation. Something simple like this shouldnt set me back hours. Every time I try to do a project in sonar I get derailed by bad documentation or poorly designed feature.
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200bpm
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/05 16:20:52
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How the heck do I return a groove clip back into basic audio so I can slip the edge???
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Kev999
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/05 17:01:23
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200bpm
How the heck do I return a groove clip back into basic audio so I can slip the edge???
It's one of the menu options if you right-click on the clip.
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Kev999
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/05 17:06:01
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I find that groove clip stretching is ok for percussive sounds but gives poor results otherwise. I normally use Time/Pitch Stretch 2 and this works better.
Process Effect > Audio Effects > DirectX > Cakewalk > Time/Pitch Stretch 2
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Paul P
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/05 19:20:32
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200bpm
How the heck do I return a groove clip back into basic audio so I can slip the edge???
Ctl-L to turn into a groove clip and Ctl-L to bring it back to normal audio.
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Anderton
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/06 10:12:29
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Kev999
I find that groove clip stretching is ok for percussive sounds but gives poor results otherwise. I normally use Time/Pitch Stretch 2 and this works better.
It depends on the material. REX and Groove Clip files work best with percussive material, but Groove Clip stretching works well with other material if you do the necessary editing. Creating groove clips that stretch well is somewhere between an art and a science.
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Anderton
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/06 10:21:05
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200bpm
THIS (below) is the problem with sonar dicumentation. A whole page on creating Groove clips and NOTHING in the entire (*&^ page that explains how to actually create a groove clip.
I think you missed the introductory material, you want to start with Working with Groove Clips. But as an aside, your experience highlights the limitation of the trend toward search-based documentation for complex products, as opposed to linear development. Search-based is great if you encounter something and want to know more about it - just search. But you can't search for something if you don't know what you need to search. There are 9 tutorials in SONAR that take a linear approach, but that's not enough to cover "secondary" topics like looping.
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jpetersen
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/06 12:31:20
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2016/03/06 12:58:05
Anderton
- DSP time stretching for a permanent stretch (click on edge while holding Ctrl and drag).
If you do this, always open "Clip" in the track inspector window and ensure "Snap Offset" stays at 0. If not, you need to set it to 0 every time. This bug is one source of inexplicable snap-to-grid behavior.
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mettelus
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/06 12:47:33
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Hmmm, I think that comment actually hit on a Matrix View timing issue I had a long time ago. In that situation I was playing with different tempos, pulling clips from MV to tracks, slip-stretching, and putting them back. At one point the timing all went chaotic. I need to go back and check this now, as that comment may be the cause.
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Anderton
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/06 19:31:28
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jpetersen
Anderton
- DSP time stretching for a permanent stretch (click on edge while holding Ctrl and drag).
If you do this, always open "Clip" in the track inspector window and ensure "Snap Offset" stays at 0.
If not, you need to set it to 0 every time.
This bug is one source of inexplicable snap-to-grid behavior.
Have you submitted a bug report for this? It's worth bringing to the Bakers' attention because as Mettelus theorizes, it may impact other areas of the program.
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jpetersen
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/06 19:56:19
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Yes. I have been banging on about this bug for years. And yes, it comes up regularly and other users report it impacts in any situation where the start of the clip and the start of the audio do not coincide.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/03/06 20:33:04
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mettelus
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/07 14:51:10
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I wanted to circle back on this one since I found one of the project files I was having issues with, but was unable to replicate a snap offset by stretching either clips in the track or pulling clips from the MV into a track (with the inspector opened or collapsed). Is there a bug report active for this? The project I cannot find (yet) was much more obvious. IIRC, I had put clips into the MV and then recorded them back into tracks. Although looping, the recorded track had a "compounding gap" between clips recorded (got bigger each time), but I also think I was doing some wonky tempo stuff in that project as well. That was one of those "sandboxes gone bad" files, so not sure if I will be able to find it anytime soon - what totally sucks with this is I rebuilt my machine last July and every project folder I have not created since has a date of "6/22/2015" on it! Edit: There is a very good chance that the file I am thinking of was recorded in X3e.
post edited by mettelus - 2016/03/07 15:18:08
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gbowling
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/07 16:41:07
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200bpm
My old sequencer, you would turn audio objects into groove clips and then you just change the tempo of the project and it will speed up or slow down audio and midi tracks, all in sync.
To do this, do the following on each of your audio tracks. - Double click the track, which opens the "loop construction view" or alternately select the track and from the view menu select "loop construction view" - In the loop construction pane at the bottom, pull down the "clip" menu at the top left of the pane - Select "stretch on/off" to turn on stretching. - Now all your tracks will follow the tempo you set. As is noted in other replies, this may not be the most accurate way to stretch. But if you're writing a song and trying to get to the best tempo for the tune, it's a quick and easy way to go. This is exactly what we do in the early stages of writing a song. We typically write songs with an acoustic guitar and hammer out vocal lines. Then we record a scratch guitar, vocals, bass, drums... Set all the tracks to stretch and play around with different tempos. Once we get a tempo or tempo map and a structure we like, then we get serious about recording the "real" parts. For this type of work, the above stretching is simple and easy and works good enough. gabo
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brundlefly
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Re: Please point me in the right direction: Time Stretching
2016/03/08 02:38:49
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gbowling
To do this, do the following on each of your audio tracks.
- Double click the track, which opens the "loop construction view" or alternately select the track and from the view menu select "loop construction view"
The trouble with that approach is that you actually have to do it for every clip, not just per track. If you have a lot of separate clips in many tracks, it's a ton of work. I still think the way I referenced in post #4, using Audiosnap Autostretch (a.k.a. Follow Project Tempo), is the way to go because you can enable it for every clip in the project at once.
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