ltb
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Plugin Limit reached
How many plugins are allowed in Sonar X2?
I just re-scanned for update x2a & received the limit reached message for the first time ever & haven't added new ones in over a week.
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bapu
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/22 22:04:45
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I've got several hundred.
I get that message when I'v double installed the same plug in different locations (it happens on an update if I'm not careful to select my layout, not the default). Look around and see if you can find a dup plug.
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ltb
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/22 22:17:39
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Thanks bapu,
I'll check it out , wondering if the x2a update has anything to do with it since it's never happened before.
I also saw for the first time after scanning & closing the pref window that there's now an asio type scan. This is also new since the update.
Have you or anyone else seen this before?
Do you know what it does?
It goes by so quickly I can't read the message.
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AT
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/23 01:24:05
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It is like 700-800. Of course, some plugs take up more slots with several variations. It is a windows or VST2 thing. There are a couple of old threads about it.
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TheSteven
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/23 03:51:14
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I haven't tested X2a to verify if the plug-in maximum limit has changed but since there was no mention in the release notes to indicate a change I would be inclined to believe that the maximum plug-in limit is still the same.
For Sonar 8.5** through X2 - the maximum limit on how many plug-ins Sonar can load is:
735 FX plug-ins
255 synths
31 rewire devices
**never bothered testing earlier versions to check.
It's not a Windows thing or a menu thing, its a fixed allocation of memory thing vs dynamic allocation thing.
"Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils" Loius-Hector Berlioz  www.AgitatedState.com MenuMagic - plug-in management powertools! My Tunes
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TheSteven
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/23 04:17:41
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X2a does address a number of plug-in issues such as - addressing plug-in dupe issues where if there were both 32 & 64 bit versions of the same plug-in and both had the same CLSID# (not an unusual occurrence). Previously you couldn't be sure which it was actually be used until you had a problem.
Haven't had time to take an in depth look, but it is nice to see that plug-in management got some attention this release.
"Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils" Loius-Hector Berlioz www.AgitatedState.com MenuMagic - plug-in management powertools! My Tunes
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gustabo
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/23 04:33:30
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TheSteven
For Sonar 8.5** through X2 - the maximum limit on how many plug-ins Sonar can load is:
735 FX plug-ins
255 synths
31 rewire devices
**never bothered testing earlier versions to check.
It's not a Windows thing or a menu thing, its a fixed allocation of memory thing vs dynamic allocation thing.
Actually the limit is "in force" when no custom plugin layout is used, with a custom plugin layout, the layout is loaded by an xml and I don't believe there is a limit. If there is a limit, it is huge because I've never hit it. My custom layout has all my plug-ins sorted by what they do such as dynamics>compressors, etc. AND by vendor such as FabFilter, Voxengo, etc. so my layout is probably double the size of how many plug-ins that I have on my sytem and I don't get a "limit reached prompt".
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Win10 Pro x64 - StudioCat Platinum Studio DAW - 32 GB Ram - MOTU UltraLite-mk3
M-Audio Keystation 88ES - Akai MPD26 (hot-rodded) - Alesis DM10 - a few guitars, a few amps
Novation Launch Control - Korg nanoKONTROL2 - PreSonus FaderPort - DAW Remote HD on iPad
Adam A7X - Behritone C50A
PreSonus Monitor Station v2 (controlling the mons)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/sonarusergroup/
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TheSteven
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/23 05:27:53
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gustabo
TheSteven
For Sonar 8.5** through X2 - the maximum limit on how many plug-ins Sonar can load is:
735 FX plug-ins
255 synths
31 rewire devices
**never bothered testing earlier versions to check.
It's not a Windows thing or a menu thing, its a fixed allocation of memory thing vs dynamic allocation thing.
Actually the limit is "in force" when no custom plugin layout is used, with a custom plugin layout, the layout is loaded by an xml and I don't believe there is a limit.
If there is a limit, it is huge because I've never hit it.
My custom layout has all my plug-ins sorted by what they do such as dynamics>compressors, etc. AND by vendor such as FabFilter, Voxengo, etc. so my layout is probably double the size of how many plug-ins that I have on my sytem and I don't get a "limit reached prompt".
Sorry, but you are wrong (spoken with respectful politeness). It is something that is 100% reproducible and has been reported to Cakewalk. This is something that my customers and I have flogged till frothy and is not effected by OS or hardware. Doesn't matter if you use custom menu layouts or not. The limitation is not in the registry databases created by the VST Plug-in Scanner, nor is the limitation in the xml plug-in menu structure that you referred to. The limitation is in the amount of fixed memory that is allocated in Sonar's internal data structure to hold plug-in information. If your plug-in menu has over a thousand unique FX plug-ins in it - only 735 of them will work and you don't which 735, the rest are just dead menu items. This is a design issue, an old design issue and I understand Cakewalk's reluctance to deal with it. Its probably one of the older pieces of code in Sonar and the original programmers may be long gone. Its like replacing the old galvanized piping in your home with copper. It may be a messy job and if you make a mistake somethings gonna be broken and the kids are all going to be screaming at you. Edit: gustabo
My custom layout has all my plug-ins sorted by what they do such as dynamics>compressors, etc. AND by vendor such as FabFilter, Voxengo, etc. so my layout is probably double the size of how many plug-ins that I have on my sytem and I don't get a "limit reached prompt". We're have a minor communication error here - I was referring to the number of plug-ins not number of menu items. Re-listing plug-ins in multiple menus or submenus is not the issue and does not effect the maximum plug-in limit in any way. As a note - Sonar's internal data structure is loaded without consideration to the plug-in layout menus in use. So if you've exceeded the limit you may still have dead listing in your menus even if the menu contains less than the max number of plug-ins.
post edited by TheSteven - 2012/12/23 05:41:03
"Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils" Loius-Hector Berlioz www.AgitatedState.com MenuMagic - plug-in management powertools! My Tunes
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ltb
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/23 08:16:28
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Thanks for the help.
I always use custom menu layouts but this is the first time I received the limit message..
I checked & had 599 total fx plugins listed. I suppose it's no longer a 735 limit or maybe another x2a bug.
I just removed my full x86 search scan folder path for the moment since I only need a few & used direct paths for those.
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gustabo
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/23 08:59:58
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@TheSteven,
ok, I stand corrected.
Thanks!
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Win10 Pro x64 - StudioCat Platinum Studio DAW - 32 GB Ram - MOTU UltraLite-mk3
M-Audio Keystation 88ES - Akai MPD26 (hot-rodded) - Alesis DM10 - a few guitars, a few amps
Novation Launch Control - Korg nanoKONTROL2 - PreSonus FaderPort - DAW Remote HD on iPad
Adam A7X - Behritone C50A
PreSonus Monitor Station v2 (controlling the mons)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/sonarusergroup/
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bapu
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/23 12:28:13
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I have 15 unique 32bit VSTs that 64bit SONAR scans for.
I have ~370 unique VSTs in my non-Cakewalk vstplugins folder.
I have 25 in Cakewlaks shared plugins folder.
I have 17 VSTs in the Cakewalk vstplugins folder.
If I look at Waves' Plug-In folder I see that I have 129 listed items, but if you dig further, under each plug folder there are 3 dlls each. If all three count, that amounts to 372.
No softsynths were counted.
So, I either have
370 + 25 + 17 + 372 + 15 = 789 VSTs
or
370 + 25 + 17 + 129 + 15 = 646 VSTs
I suspect it's the latter, if so that means I can get ~90 more VSTs. Woot Woot!!!!
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TheSteven
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/23 16:33:55
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bapu
I have 15 unique 32bit VSTs that 64bit SONAR scans for.
I have ~370 unique VSTs in my non-Cakewalk vstplugins folder.
I have 25 in Cakewlaks shared plugins folder.
I have 17 VSTs in the Cakewalk vstplugins folder.
If I look at Waves' Plug-In folder I see that I have 129 listed items, but if you dig further, under each plug folder there are 3 dlls each. If all three count, that amounts to 372.
No softsynths were counted.
So, I either have
370 + 25 + 17 + 372 + 15 = 789 VSTs
or
370 + 25 + 17 + 129 + 15 = 646 VSTs
I suspect it's the latter, if so that means I can get ~90 more VSTs. Woot Woot!!!!
And what about DX plugs? It's not an FX VST count, it's an FX plug-in count. #FX = DX + VST #Inst = DXi + VSTi Also bear in mind that you can't just count the files for DX plug-ins because a single file can act as several different individually registered plug-ins. For example Cakewalk's Expander/Gate, Limiter, Compressor/Gate and Dynamics Processor are registered as 4 separate plug-ins but all use the same file DynamicsProcessor.ax. You need to use Cakewalks's Plug-in Manager or a third party tool to get an accurate count.
"Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils" Loius-Hector Berlioz www.AgitatedState.com MenuMagic - plug-in management powertools! My Tunes
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bapu
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/23 20:33:24
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TheSteven
And what about DX plugs? It's not an FX VST count, it's an FX plug-in count.
#FX = DX + VST
#Inst = DXi + VSTi
Just looked in CW P-I Manager 734 is my #FX (37 DX + 697 VST)
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 09:33:54
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I've never hit the limit.
I don't even think I have very many plugs.
I can't imagine a project with the max number of plugs.... wow... I'm thinking that most computers will choke well before that limit is hit.
I use plugs in the buss to reduce the number needed in my projects....
I'm also thinking "less is more" when it comes to plugs and such things... but that's just me.....
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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bitflipper
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 12:17:27
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I hit the limit years ago and have had a self-imposed policy ever since of only adding a new one after first removing an old one.
This has actually been a good thing. Limiting the number of plugins is not a hardship; it actually helps to work with a smaller number of plugins that I know very well. Herb's right on the money with "less is more". My core arsenal consists of perhaps 50 plugins, and I could actually make do with fewer than that.
Removed plugins are copied into a folder that's outside the scan path. If I ever do need to reinstate one of them to work on some old project, I know where they are.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bapu
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 12:24:19
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A number of people have indirectly slammed me in the past for owning so/too many plugs saying it is pointless. For the record I will state, once again, that I thought that buying all the big player plugs would be for compatibility with others (if need be). It could be argued (sucessfuly) that I will never have the time to learn in detail all 734 plugs I have. But then I'll probably never have the time to learn all of X2 Producer either, but I still own it.
post edited by bapu - 2012/12/24 12:54:51
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jm24
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 12:33:41
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some of the plug ins, all of the time
never all of the plug ins, all of the time
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bapu
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 16:02:23
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@TheSteven
OK, I just happen to have to have 9 32bit FXs I do not normally load up in 64bit X2 (in a separate path like bitflipper does). When I added them to the scan list the CW Plug In Manager shows I have 736 VST + DX fx's.
No message about too many plugs.
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John
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 16:38:43
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I could be wrong but I don't think Sonar has a limit on how many plugins one can have. I do think there is a limit on how many can be displayed in the menu though. I believe this is a Windows limitation on how many objects can be in a menu.
If you read the dialog it doesn't say you have too many plugins. It says that you have too many to be displayed and some will not be displayed.
I don't think the browser has this issue.
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TheSteven
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 17:38:30
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bapu
@TheSteven
OK, I just happen to have to have 9 32bit FXs I do not normally load up in 64bit X2 (in a separate path like bitflipper does). When I added them to the scan list the CW Plug In Manager shows I have 736 VST + DX fx's.
No message about too many plugs.
With instrument plug-ins the 'too many' message is pretty consistent, not so with FX plug-ins.
"Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils" Loius-Hector Berlioz www.AgitatedState.com MenuMagic - plug-in management powertools! My Tunes
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TheSteven
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 19:00:09
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John
I could be wrong but I don't think Sonar has a limit on how many plugins one can have. I do think there is a limit on how many can be displayed in the menu though. I believe this is a Windows limitation on how many objects can be in a menu.
If you read the dialog it doesn't say you have too many plugins. It says that you have too many to be displayed and some will not be displayed.
I don't think the browser has this issue.
Trying to come up with an analogy that would help clarify things. You've got world with - a pantry that contains all of your ingredients.
- plug-in database created by the VST Scanner/Plug-in Manager that references ALL VSTs know to Sonar. - a kitchen which contains all ingredients accessible to you when cooking.
- Sonar's internal data structure, the database that holds what plug-ins can be accessed. - and lists of available ingredients.
- i.e. plug-in menus.
When Sonar loads it fills your kitchen (it's data structures) with items from the pantry (the physical database of plug-ins) until the kitchen is full. After Sonar loads it will only look in the kitchen for ingredients. If you check the list of available ingredients (your plug-in menus) it might say that you have something available but if you suffer from pantry bloat (i.e. exceeding the max plug-in limit) you won't realize that the item is not available until you try to access it and nothing happens. Sticking with the above analogy - the problem isn't with pantry space nor with the ingredient lists and the various tools to browse them/use them; the problem is that in your virtual world the kitchen is locked into a set of fixed dimensions and it's capacity is set. So whether you're cooking for a 3 piece or an orchestral mansion the kitchen will always be the same size. As stated previously... This is not a menu limitation issue. I created a batch of plug-ins to test & explore the plug-in limitation issues so that I would know how Sonar dealt with the issue and to see if my MenuMagic ap was handling things correctly. My test setup contains 1299 FX VSTs and 299 instrument VSTs - all of them individually named/numbered so I could determine accurately if a plug-in was showing up in the menus and if that menu contained a live or dead link. ALL of the plug-ins show up in the menus - but only 735/255 have live links. It's a pain in the @ss to setup & test but the results are 100% reproducible. If you are interested in testing this out yourself and would like more info - send me a PM with your name & email address.
"Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils" Loius-Hector Berlioz www.AgitatedState.com MenuMagic - plug-in management powertools! My Tunes
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jm24
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 19:38:56
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carl
How many plugins are allowed in Sonar X2?
I just re-scanned for update x2a & received the limit reached message for the first time ever & haven't added new ones in over a week.
Sonar is merely channeling the universe which is telling you to stop pursuing the accumulation of things you will never use. The universe works in mysterious ways. To what other activities in your life may this advice be pertinent?
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John
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 19:53:46
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Post 13 in this thread may put some light on the subject Here
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ltb
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 20:12:37
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jm24
carl
How many plugins are allowed in Sonar X2?
I just re-scanned for update x2a & received the limit reached message for the first time ever & haven't added new ones in over a week.
Sonar is merely channeling the universe which is telling you to stop pursuing the accumulation of things you will never use.
The universe works in mysterious ways.
To what other activities in your life may this advice be pertinent?
Yeah, I think you're right. I'm was organizing & getting rid of many plugins I no longer use, many of them x86 when I scanned & got the message. Pre x2a I scanned at last a dozen times with Waves Mercury bundle installed & using both x64, x86 w/o any limit message. Removing a few x86 plugins from the scan path stopped the limit message. I can now use any of my user or full layout menus.
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TheSteven
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 21:32:32
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John
Post 13 in this thread may put some light on the subject Here
"From my understanding of the situation, the limit is just in how many one menu can show - not an actual limit in the number of plugins that SONAR supports."
His information is wrong and anyone who has battled this issue and seriously tried to find a work around will tell you so. As said in previous posts on this thread: menus, submenu, subsubmenus - have no affect on the limit. Many of the people who run into this issue never post it on because if you do a quick search on the subject you'll find that the issue most often gets a hostile response from many of the forum faithful - from accusations that only a pirate would have so many plug-ins to questions on their sanity or professionalism. You don't see such comments about people who say they need more than a 100 tracks for a project... There are many valid reason why someone would want or need to have a large collection of plug-ins - Studio owner wanting to attract business by offering clients a wide variety of choice, or match what the artist/producer is using or just say they have more than Joe's Studio down the street.
- Musicians who work with other musicians and want to be able to easily exchange tracks without having to bounce them first.
- Obsessive collectors - there are thousands of free plug-ins available.
Is it really up to you or me to decide how many plug-ins someone should be able to own & use?
How about the numbers or computing devices, keyboards, guitars or name-your-item that someone should own?
Nowadays you don't have to be a plug-in whore to have a lot of plug-ins. The whole plug-in limitation issue could be fixed by Sonar switching from the current static to a new dynamically allocated memory structure to hold plug-in information - wasn't the major impetus of going to 64 bit to remove fixed memory limitations? Anyway hope everyone has a Merry Christmas, happy post Hanukkah, etc. ...Steven
"Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils" Loius-Hector Berlioz www.AgitatedState.com MenuMagic - plug-in management powertools! My Tunes
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John
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/24 22:36:38
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Steven I am not attacking anyone or finding fault. All I am saying is that what is in a menu is not what is available to a user after a certain number of plugins is reached. Yes there is a limit in the menu but only there. The work around is to create multiple menus.
Again it is a windows problem in how windows handles menus.
It may not be a wonderful thing to have to figure out what is missing and create other menus but there are ways to do this and avoid this problem.
As far as I can tell the browser has no limitation.
This has been a long standing issue that has been explained. For now it is the way it is.
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guitartrek
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/25 00:07:54
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Steven - you make great points as to why some would want a large plug-in library. I'm in total agreement with the need for dynamic allocation instead of static - as a programmer I'm always in favor of that approach.
For me this is not an issue as I follow the same kind of policy as Bitflipper. Every 3 years (approximately) I upgrade my system and then go through a purging of old plug-ins. I don't like to keep old stuff around - it's just easier to rebuild my system with fewer components.
But I just do this for myself - I'm not maintaining tons of other people's projects, in which case I'd want to keep all the old plug-ins on my system.
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TheSteven
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/25 03:29:15
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John
Steven I am not attacking anyone or finding fault. All I am saying is that what is in a menu is not what is available to a user after a certain number of plugins is reached. Yes there is a limit in the menu but only there. The work around is to create multiple menus.
Again it is a windows problem in how windows handles menus.
It may not be a wonderful thing to have to figure out what is missing and create other menus but there are ways to do this and avoid this problem.
As far as I can tell the browser has no limitation.
This has been a long standing issue that has been explained. For now it is the way it is.
Hi John, If it came off that I was implying that you or anyone else here was attacking or finding fault, my apologies. Multiple menus unfortunately don't fix the issue. If you have 1200 FX plug-ins and create 2 separate menus system each with 600 plug-ins - you will still have loads of dead menu slots - theoretically up to (1200- 735) 475 in one of them). This is because Sonar's internal data structure is loaded with its information on program start up; also there are at least 12 different areas in Sonar that use plug-in layout menus so it is possible that each one could use a different menu layout. I will be more than happy to provide anyone with a test set of plug-ins if they wish to test the nuances of the plug-in maximum limit issue themselves. The plug-in limit has been a long standing problem - but the real reason behind it is a design decision not a Windows limitation. Possibly the fixed allocation system was put in place once upon a time because of concerns about exhausting the menu system, or that in a 32bit OS it made sense to impose a limit; but regardless of claims the menu's are not the cause of the limitation. It is what it is, but there is no reason by today's standards that it should be what it is.
"Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils" Loius-Hector Berlioz www.AgitatedState.com MenuMagic - plug-in management powertools! My Tunes
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jm24
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Re:Plugin Limit reached
2012/12/25 17:24:56
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Arguing with the universe is a waste of life time.
This is really a case of less-is-more.
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