clintmartin
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Plugin or program Request...Does it exist? (YES!)
I would like to import a wav of my mixes and tell the plugin or program what Average RMS level I want, and it just happen. This would be a huge time saver. I know a few auto level programs exist, but can they do what I want?
post edited by clintmartin - 2015/06/28 09:57:12
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mudgel
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 12:29:57
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1. You don't have to export your mix. You can just bounce it to a stereo channel from within Sonar. 2. In the Process menu you can select Normalise or Gain and select the desired parameters. I'm not infront of Sonar right now and can't remember exactly where the menu is.
post edited by mudgel - 2015/06/27 12:45:24
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cclarry
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 12:41:53
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clintmartin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 12:44:20
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Yes, I'm aware of those tools, but those are for PEAK levels, I'm talking about average RMS. When finishing a mix I aim for -14 average RMS using several plugins for metering to get close. It's not a rule of course and every song has other factors to consider when level matching. I would think it would save some time to be able to quickly make songs average -14 RMS (or what ever your preference is) and then fine tune from there.
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scook
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 12:52:51
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☼ Best Answerby clintmartin 2015/06/28 09:55:49
If I needed to normalize using average RMS, I would run the wave through SoundForge. If I have a bunch of files to normalize, I would use the batch processor in SoundForge. I would expect other editors (Audition, WaveLab) have similar functions.
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clintmartin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 13:25:08
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I'm not sure if Audition does. It may, but I'm new to it. Of course Audition and Sonar has normalizing functions, but I think it would have to be able to normalize the average RMS, not peak RMS. To be helpful.
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scook
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 14:12:35
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☄ Helpfulby clintmartin 2015/06/28 09:56:02
I understand, this is an image of the normalize dialog in SoundForge 
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cclarry
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 14:41:43
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clintmartin
Yes, I'm aware of those tools, but those are for PEAK levels, I'm talking about average RMS. When finishing a mix I aim for -14 average RMS using several plugins for metering to get close. It's not a rule of course and every song has other factors to consider when level matching. I would think it would save some time to be able to quickly make songs average -14 RMS (or what ever your preference is) and then fine tune from there.
That is what Loudness Correct does...while it does also have Peak Limiter built in ( a VERY good one)..it is a Loudness (RMS) correction tool...not JUST a peak limiter...
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clintmartin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 15:17:25
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scook
I understand, this is an image of the normalize dialog in SoundForge
Hmmm. Interesting. I think I have a copy of Soundforge 10. I'll have to check that out. Adobe may have it too.
post edited by clintmartin - 2015/06/27 15:25:16
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clintmartin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 15:19:06
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☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2015/06/27 15:25:38
cclarry
clintmartin
Yes, I'm aware of those tools, but those are for PEAK levels, I'm talking about average RMS. When finishing a mix I aim for -14 average RMS using several plugins for metering to get close. It's not a rule of course and every song has other factors to consider when level matching. I would think it would save some time to be able to quickly make songs average -14 RMS (or what ever your preference is) and then fine tune from there.
That is what Loudness Correct does...while it does also have Peak Limiter built in ( a VERY good one)..it is a Loudness (RMS) correction tool...not JUST a peak limiter...
That does look good Larry. It's expensive too! I saw the sale, but I may have this tool somewhere already and just be ignorant of it. I'm hoping for ignorance...it's always cheaper.
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scook
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 15:19:28
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clintmartin
I have a copy of Soundforge 10.
The image is from SF10.
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cclarry
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 15:20:43
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clintmartin
cclarry
clintmartin
Yes, I'm aware of those tools, but those are for PEAK levels, I'm talking about average RMS. When finishing a mix I aim for -14 average RMS using several plugins for metering to get close. It's not a rule of course and every song has other factors to consider when level matching. I would think it would save some time to be able to quickly make songs average -14 RMS (or what ever your preference is) and then fine tune from there.
That is what Loudness Correct does...while it does also have Peak Limiter built in ( a VERY good one)..it is a Loudness (RMS) correction tool...not JUST a peak limiter...
That does look good Larry. It's expensive too! I saw the sale, but I may have this tool somewhere already and just be ignorant of it. I'm hoping for ignorance...it's always cheaper.
Yeah..I'm still kicking myself for not buying it during the sale... 
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cclarry
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 15:21:52
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On the bright side...I have managed to maintain my composure during these sales...but not without gnawing a fingers off 
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cclarry
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 15:23:42
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cclarry
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 15:26:31
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clintmartin
scook
I understand, this is an image of the normalize dialog in SoundForge
Hmmm. Interesting. I think I have a copy of Soundforge 10. I'll have to check that out. Adobe may have it too.
This also looks nice...a nice set of adjustable parameters all in one dialogue... And SF does a whole lot more as well...
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clintmartin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 15:42:40
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☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2015/06/27 15:52:26
Well I did have Sound forge 10! I thought so. I now have it installed and will try to use Scook's tool to put in Sonar's utilities later. I guess I can have both Audition and Sound forge 10. It feels like Christmas!
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scook
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 16:07:12
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I prefer working in SF instead of the DAW when finalizing a mixed track. Have a look at the plug-in chainer in the SF view menu. Although I also have SF in the SONAR Utilities menu.
post edited by scook - 2015/06/27 16:13:44
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clintmartin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/27 19:27:38
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I've now got both Adobe Audition 3 and Sound Forge Pro 10 in Sonar's utilities! Good Day. Now I need to read and watch a ton of tutorials on both. I like to take my mix and reduce the peaks of the loudest transients. I usually have to highlight each transient and reduce each manually which takes some time (but it's worth it. less compression needed, less limiting needed). Audition has a knob appear when a portion is selected or highlighted. So far...I haven't found a quick way of doing this in SF, but I bet there is. Thanks for the help! Today has been a day of huge upgrades!
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synkrotron
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/28 04:46:59
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clintmartin
I've now got both Adobe Audition 3 and Sound Forge Pro 10 in Sonar's utilities!
Mmmm... This is something I must do myself, instead of closing down Sonar, find the audio file and then opening it up in SF10... Sounds much easier... Tell me Clint, does SF 10 start up okay? I get presented Windows User Account Control dialog box.
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clintmartin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/28 08:59:00
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Yes. When I highlight/select the wav I go to utilities and select SF. When it opens I get the audio dropout message from Sonar, but it quickly fixes itself. (My SF settings may not be the same as my Sonar settings. I haven't had time to dig into this yet.) Other than that it works perfectly. I don't get this with Adobe Audition 3. There are things about both I like. Over time I'm sure a favorite workflow will develope. Scook sent me clear instructions on how to use his utility tool. I can send that to you if you need it. Are you running Windows and Sonar as the administrator?
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synkrotron
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/28 11:37:38
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Hi Clint, thanks for coming back. I followed the official instructions that scook point to in one of his posts in the Sonar forum, and although I had problems early on, I eventually got both SF10 and Au3 working. I'm a long time user of SF and when I used to do MIDI only, and Cakewalk didn't do audio at all, I would use SF for recording my MIDI synths. It was crude, but worked okay. Eventually, I started using Sonar and things changed. I still used SF for final tweaking of my wave file though, as I had already invested a considerable sum of money in it. What I'm not that enthused over now, though, is having to run Sonar in admin mode. I don't like having to click an extra yes button to get into my software. I know it's only minor but it bugs the backside off me. I grabbed Audition 3 a couple of weeks ago when it was being talked about around these parts. I've not yet used it in anger, but I'm going to give it a serious look at now... I am able to run Au3, within Sonar, without running either of them in admin mode, and you don't get that error when first opening a wave file inside SF. At the end of the day, all I am looking to do is to normalise a take, if I feel it needs it. And I've sussed out how to carry out that simple task in Au3 now... So all is well  thanks andy
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clintmartin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/28 15:44:56
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You can normalize in Sonar. I wanted to Normalize using average RMS which Sound Forge does. Being able to edit peaks (highlight and reduce gain) in the wav form quickly is where Au3 shines. The pencil tool in Sound Forge is cool, but it would be slow to edit an entire song that way. I can't help but thinking I'm missing something in Sound Forge...this should be very quick and easy. At least I now have all of the tools within the Sonar program.
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ShellstaX
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/28 22:32:52
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There's an alternative which may fit into your workflow and provide some some more tricks ... Hornet Plugins AutoGain Pro - It has RMS - It's a plugin - It can work with automation - It can do do it for you and/or you can tweak it - It's reasonably priced ~US$25 - There are frequent sales (monthly(?) 40-50% off) - There a (limited) Demo version to try 
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clintmartin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/28 22:46:47
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ShellstaX
There's an alternative which may fit into your workflow and provide some some more tricks ...
Hornet Plugins AutoGain Pro
- It has RMS
- It's a plugin
- It can work with automation
- It can do do it for you and/or you can tweak it
- It's reasonably priced ~US$25
- There are frequent sales (monthly(?) 40-50% off)
- There a (limited) Demo version to try
I have this plugin and I use it a lot, but it's not well suited for mastering IMO. I use this with the bass guitar sometimes to balance uneven dynamics with the drums. Great plugin! Huge value!
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Fleer
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/28 23:34:30
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True. Even got that one when Hornet did 70% off :)
"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl" (Wish You Were Here)
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Elffin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/29 11:13:11
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ok... newbie questions now..
Why normalise?
also normalise rms or peak - what's the difference?
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clintmartin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/29 16:47:50
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As a rule I don't think normalizing is a great idea as it raises the noise floor, but... I think it saves time when trying to level volumes on finished songs. A limiter can quickly level the peaks, but RMS is percieved volume or how loud it sounds. For example you may have two songs which both peak at 0.1 db, but the ave RMS may differ by 3 or 4 db (or much more). Chances are one of the songs has more dynamic range than the other. It takes me a long time to smooth out 10 or 12 songs as a mastered project. I started the thread because I wanted a tool to quickly normalize all of my finished mixes to an average of -14 RMS. Keep in mind my songs are already within a db or two of this so the negatives of normalizing are minimized. This will only get me closer to where I want to be. There is more to it than that, but it saves me time to at least get the levels narrowed down a little. I'm not a pro enginner. Some people on this forum are and may have a better way or better tools, but for now I'm happy to record and mix in Sonar, edit peaks in Adobe Audition and normalize the ave RMS with Sound Forge.
post edited by clintmartin - 2015/06/29 16:57:22
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ShellstaX
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/29 19:39:25
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clintmartin
I'm not a pro enginner ...
I'm no audiophile ... but have listened to a lot of music and am likely more aware and attentive to production quality than most. Your stuff sounds great Clint.
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clintmartin
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/29 20:29:36
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Thanks ShellstaX. I appreciate it, your being very (too) kind. I'm trying to learn and I'm loving the process. I'm truly having more fun with my music than ever. This forum amazes me. So many people willing to spend so much time helping people like me out. Life is good.
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scook
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Re: Plugin or program Request...Does it exist?
2015/06/30 00:39:37
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clintmartin
Being able to edit peaks (highlight and reduce gain) in the wav form quickly is where Au3 shines. The pencil tool in Sound Forge is cool, but it would be slow to edit an entire song that way.
It may be faster in Audition, IDK, I would use a volume envelop in SF in the plug-in chainer which is effectively the same as the FX bin in SONAR
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