One Billion Dollars

$0.... a paid 'expansion' for this version of Sonar is very much a slap in the face to all of the loyal Sonar users. I shouldn't be charged for xtra pickles when the pickles are supposed to come with it and they were left off or in-edible. Give us the pickles! Honestly, this is enough to take my yearly upgrade $ and invest in a more stable or at least customer oriented/ designed DAW. The features that have not worked as promised and not been fixed STILL, have cost my professional studio Much, much more than the piddly $49 upgrade. I don't mind spending a dime, but don't cost me a penny.

I think a lot of the anti X1 lobby would come across better if they didn't so often  frame their arguments - in many cases base their arguments solely on - "I want a REAL MAN'S DAW, anyone using this stuff is an amateur bonehead". Because it's plainly not the case. There may be plenty of valid reasons to not like it, but the suggestion that it's somehow a toy is not among them; that's just ignorant nonsense.

This post above actually makes no points about it at all, but simply baselessly insults people who think it's any use. I think that's a bit kind of rude, meself.

John T


I think a lot of the anti X1 lobby would come across better if they didn't so often  frame their arguments - in many cases base their arguments solely on - "I want a REAL MAN'S DAW, anyone using this stuff is an amateur bonehead". Because it's plainly not the case. There may be plenty of valid reasons to not like it, but the suggestion that it's somehow a toy is not among them; that's just ignorant nonsense.

This post above actually makes no points about it at all, but simply baselessly insults people who think it's any use. I think that's a bit kind of rude, meself.

Was not my intent to insult anyone at all. But as a business, Cakewalk likes to boast about the huge customer base they have. Well that is just great.  
 
Elementary math shows that all they need is to sign up 5000 users that simply want no more gimmicks but instead want to see Sonar, as we have watched it develop over many years, perfected. It's just good business. 5000 subscribers @ $250.00 each = $1,250,000 per year.
 
Assign a full time programmer to work on the old Sonar 8.5.  Even if he/she is paid 80K per year, which ain't small change in today's economy, his sales would still be over 15 times his salary. That is better than nearly any industry. Even banks would love to show that kind of sales per employee.
 
It would be a win / win for all concerned. Established longtime users would be greatful. Cakewalk would probably never lose that base plus they would able to charge more verses a upgrade to boot. And it would not in anyway harm people like yourself, that evidently, are happy with the new X1 model.
 
Some of us have a vested interest in seeing Sonar, as it was prior to X1, perfected. That is partly because some of us have had a lot of input with many of the ideas that have been implemented in Sonar prior to X1.  But it is primaraily because a large portion of the established base have many thousands of hours invested in Sonar prior to X1 and have no desire at all to relearn it.
 
Business is business. If X1 is all there is to be henceforth, many will simply feel abandoned by the Company that they have long helped support and they will learn something else. 
 
 

John T


YAWN.

People have been coming on ere since even before the release last December, and talking about feeling "abandoned" and moving on. I wish some of them would actually move on. Really. Move on. More old Sonar dev is not going to happen. 8.5 is a defunct product. This has been made clear loads of times. Move on. Go.

While I do agree with you in a lot of ways I really do not see a need to  get into it in this way. This, probably, is what fuels the 'fanboi' imagery you have garnered over the past little while.


To me it really does matter how we approach those we have disagreements with. 


And, there have been way too many threads that have been derailed by these bickerfests...


mmmm....maybe I should start throwing cat pix in here....

I'd like to see a sponsor a bug scheme setup, where one can directly finance the fixing of your favourite bug that has persisted over several versions.

This way the real issues that some have with certain specific features that don't bother the vocal majority that say "works fine for me" will all eventually get addressed, leading to a far more capable DAW in ALL areas, not limited to just the common areas.

To that end I'll kick off and I pledge $179 toward Rewire being fixed and nicely implemented stereo inputs that work in the next Sonar version I purchase.

  But they aren't free... we actually pay for them.



  Maybe that is why you are so understanding about Cakewalk's sluggishness and lack of commitment to bug fixes... you claim they are doing it for free.


  Cakewalk isn't fixing the bugs for free. I already paid for the bugs to not be there... and I'm paying for the bug fixes year after year.

  I am dissatisfied with Cakewalk's performance regarding the bug fixes I have been paying for.

  If we have to go to a pay for fixes model... well, I figure I'm already 99% there... so the evolution of some sort of specific pay to fix system that focuses on an actual bona fide commitment to fix the bug seems like it will be better than the system we have now... a system where some of us try to pay for bug fixes and we get offered a Softtube in return.


best regards,
mike

Well we're being asked to pay for fixes that will be included free in the extended package because to get them at a known time you need to buy Producer Extended. if you don't, as Seth himself said there is no specific rollout for the fixes to be released other than they will be, with no promise of exactly when, even though they will exist and be included in a Pay for product.

I appreciate that Cakewalk need revenus and it has to come from somewhere if they have extended their SONAR development cycle (I applaud extending their development cycle) but if the code is available why not give it to us. If it's good enough to release with an addon surely it is OK for the masses that don't.

Except the reality is maybe that in creating the addon they had to fix some of the bugs in ProChannel and there's probably not a way to deliver it outside of the new modular PC addon. And round we go in circles.

So buy Producer Extended hoping that these bugfixes work and are the ones we have complained about or wait while trying to use a program feature (ProChannel) which was a big X1 carrot that doesn't work properly or reliably for some of us as it turns itself on and off at unpredicatbale times.

i'd love to love it but I think I'll stick with X1C experimental and work in 8.5.3 and watch the early users and see if I can work out which way to go.
mmm!

mike_mccue


  But they aren't free... we actually pay for them.



Maybe that is why you are so understanding about Cakewalk's sluggishness and lack of commitment to bug fixes... you claim they are doing it for free.


Cakewalk isn't fixing the bugs for free. I already paid for the bugs to not be there... and I'm paying for the bug fixes year after year.

I am dissatisfied with Cakewalk's performance regarding the bug fixes I have been paying for.

If we have to go to a pay for fixes model... well, I figure I'm already 99% there... so the evolution of some sort of specific pay to fix system that focuses on an actual bona fide commitment to fix the bug seems like it will be better than the system we have now... a system where some of us try to pay for bug fixes and we get offered a Softtube in return.


best regards,
mike

I have been disappointed about CW not fixing a bug when its been reported and so on. But I also know from what they say that they can't get to all of the bugs all of the time. I accept that as there is no point for them to lie about it. 

Here with X1 with 4 patches that fixed problems people had reported. Each one was free. I see this as CW doing its very best in providing a product to its users. Nor do I believe that CW is cavalier in how it looks at bugs. I believe that if they could they would eliminate every single bug. The problem is that is impossible.  We have seen CW's CTO come on to the forum and ask about bugs. Other CW people coming here to do the same. I don't see how any user can be cynical about the way CW has addressed these problem.

Though a specific bug may not get fixed that may concern a specific user CW has by and large addressed bugs over time. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

I have found bugs in X1. I have also confirmed bugs others have found. It is this process that in the end will make a better X1. The only question is when. I believe CW will fixed as many as they can in a given time period.

Now as to stability again I would never use a program I could not count on. X1 is very stable on my system. I have said that ever since I started using it. Nothing has changed in that area.

I have not and never will undermine users that report bugs. I will and have supported any user that finds a bug. However, I will stand up for a DAW that is working for me in everything I ask it to do. I will counter anyone that tries to bash the product because they simply don't like it. To me that is the same as trolling.

mudgel


Well we're being asked to pay for fixes that will be included free in the extended package because to get them at a known time you need to buy Producer Extended. if you don't, as Seth himself said there is no specific rollout for the fixes to be released other than they will be, with no promise of exactly when, even though they will exist and be included in a Pay for product.

OK, so this is true, in a completely literal sense.

However, for it to be something to get uptight about, there has to be a secondary belief that the rollout of free fixes is some intolerable amount of time away.

As far as I see it, there's been a pretty continuous flow of patches over the last nine months, and they've said they intend to carry on doing that, and that a free patch including bug fixes that are in Expanded is the next thing coming down the pike. What, actually, is everyone worried about here?

It kind of reminds me of the thing with X1c. They said it was coming up arund the end of a given month, didn't give an exact date, and there was a flood of "OH MY GOD, WHEN IS IT COMING" stuff, followed by "OH MY GOD, IT'S THE END OF THE MONTH" stuff, and then it dropped a few days later. Up until the point it dropped, some people were talking like they'd been robbed, cheated, lied to and whatever else.

Isn't this the same? I think it is.

There's no point in posting this I guess, everyone's going to do what they're going to do. Drama addiction.

John T

John


I am having a hard time finding anything to get upset about.

Well, you don't try as hard to as some other people.

LOL maybe you're right. Then again I just load up X1 and keep on keeping on.

John


First what patches have you paid for?

We've all paid for all the patches - it's included in the purchase price.

I'm with the 'free' crowd.

Cakewalk developers get paid to create a working product, largely out of sales of those products. Bugs/fixes are part of the basic product and, while not always fixable by release time, are fundamental to the core design, functionality and desirability of that product. Users shouldn't have to pay for that after already purchasing the product. "You get what you pay for" applies here, and if the reason you don't is related to design and development, the consumer has a right to expect that to be resolved by the manufacturer. 

Upgrades (and updates that include new features and functions not included in the initial release) are a different story. However comma I do agree with the sentiment that releasing a major version overhaul, followed by a rapid succession of updates/fixes/upgrades/turbos/etc, is rather Microsoft-ish, and probably not beneficial to the company's reputation. The problem isn't always the development, its the release dates they get themselves locked into.
 
Stability is somewhat subjective, and not completely in the hands of the developers. But a thorough T&E is also expected by the consumer to cover the majority of likely user scenarios.

I've already paid for support, bottom line.

I've been logging quite a few bugs recently with Cakewalk/Sonar X1c. I see about three of them to be pretty serious, whilst the other 10 (or less, I've lost count), whilst mild in comparison.... need to be fixed. I've proven at least to myself we need an X1D and probably an X1E after that.

Having worked with software companies before I can assure you a software companies problem is being able to identify bugs.... and to have bug reported correctly in a reproducable way.

If you find a bug, and don't bother reporting it to Cakewalks problem report form (after making an effort to supply clear steps for a QA dept to investigate) then you only have yourselves to blame:

http://www.cakewalk.com/support/contact/problemreport.aspx

Sometimes it is very hard to reproduce an issue, and many people come to many different conclusions (esp non software developers)... the best way I've learnt to get around these issues that may be difficult to reproduce, is to compare notes with other people first before jumping to conclusions (e.g. Do have they the EXACT same issue, do they run the same hardware and drivers as you do... etc etc).  Get the actual facts first, THEN debate them afterwards (hopefully you will be talking to support first though before a fruitless debate starts).

Don't expect a magic wand. If you want things bug free then you need to become the bug testers and report them (like it or not that's how software companies operate).