Deere101
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Popping when Starting and Stopping
Hi,
I am using Sonar X3 and I have been having an issue when I get a pop when I begin playback of a track and sometimes when I stop playback. I am using MIDI and VST in my current project. I do not have any problems after I begin the playback. I am not sure whether it is a sound card issue or something else on in my computer and I do not have an alternate sound card to test my current one. I have tried opening some stock sound files in Sonar and I still get the popping when I begin playback.
My sound card: M-Audio Delta 1010LT
Thanks
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slartabartfast
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/02 17:15:13
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"Pops" often indicate that a cut has been made at a high point in the waveform, and can often be avoided by making cuts at zero crossings or using a fade. Zoom in on the waveform to the point where you can see individual samples and have a look at the places where it is popping.
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Deere101
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/02 17:24:40
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I have tried checking to see whether the sound was clipping but that's not the issue. The sound is similar but only happens when I start or stop playback, from any point in time, and does not happen at all during the playback.
But thanks for checking
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slartabartfast
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/02 18:01:21
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We are not talking about clipping here. Clipping is when the waveform exceeds 0 dB. What is being discussed here is that if you make an edit/cut when the digital amplitude is not zero (0) either above or below the zero line, you will start or end the clip with an abrupt change from some non-zero value to zero at the cut. Sound does not behave that way--it tapers off--even a very transient sound. Your analog transducer gear suddenly goes from signal to no signal or vice versa, and the result is an audible pop. http://www.ohdratdigital.com/tutorials-2/zero-crossing-points-what-are-they/ Sonar has the option to "Snap to Nearest Audio Zero Crossings" for a reason.
post edited by slartabartfast - 2015/08/02 18:09:07
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Deere101
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/02 18:12:04
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Ooohhhh, I see. That makes sense. However, is there something I can do to change that while just working rather than for the final product? Or is that just a limitation that I have to deal with?
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Zargg
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/02 18:27:54
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Hi. You could just fade in / out the clips that pop (small fade in / out). Or adjust each clip (while zoomed in), to make sure everything is at zero crossing.
Best of luck.
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tvolhein
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/02 19:14:40
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Deere101
I have tried checking to see whether the sound was clipping but that's not the issue. The sound is similar but only happens when I start or stop playback, from any point in time, and does not happen at all during the playback.
But thanks for checking
This doesn't sound like a "zero crossing" issue due to the OP saying that it doesn't matter where the now time is when he starts and stops. t
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TomHelvey
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/02 21:30:48
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The OP is saying that the pops happen when the transport is started and stopped regardless of what is recorded. It has nothing to do with clips or zero crossing. I get the same thing too even with only instrument tracks. I think it's an artifact of processing start and stop. I usually ignore it, it hasn't blown my speakers yet and it doesn't show up in the final mix.
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SimpleManZ
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/02 21:55:26
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TomHelvey
The OP is saying that the pops happen when the transport is started and stopped regardless of what is recorded. It has nothing to do with clips or zero crossing. I get the same thing too even with only instrument tracks. I think it's an artifact of processing start and stop. I usually ignore it, it hasn't blown my speakers yet and it doesn't show up in the final mix.
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bvideo
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/02 23:16:57
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☄ Helpfulby robert_e_bone 2015/08/03 18:59:19
Would this be relevant for your playback issue:
Auto fade when starting/stopping playback (search for this in the manual)
Edit > Preferences -> Audio - Playback and Recording.
Fade On Start (milliseconds)
Fade On Stop (milliseconds).
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Deere101
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/02 23:49:03
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Thank you for the suggestions.
tvolhein and TomHelvey are correct when I say that it does not matter where I start or stop.
In regards to SimpleManZ, I have tried reinstalling my soundcard driver many times without changer and I'm not sure which settings would effect the issue.
In regards to bvideo, using the Fade-in and Fade-out options help a lot with reducing the popping.
Is this just a standard phenomenon that occurs when using Sonar and related software or would better equipment be able to deal with it? (Is this something that occurs with others?)
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ShellstaX
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/03 01:05:17
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Pops and clicks are usually the result of buffer sizes being too low. Best to use an Audio Interface with provided/current ASIO drivers. Stopping/restarting your Audio Engine can sometimes be a temporary solution. I also stumbled on a solution to garbled audio at one time which was to toggle Input Echo (a couple of times). For me also, it can sometimes raise it's head when system memory use is getting high (so resolve by 'usual methods' - close unnecessary programs, bounce tracks etc). See http://www.cakewalk.com/S...-Playing-and-Recording
post edited by ShellstaX - 2015/08/03 01:13:01
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bvideo
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/03 10:21:34
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☼ Best Answerby Deere101 2015/08/03 17:33:21
A pop can be induced at almost any point in a sound file by abruptly starting or stopping it. Most sound players take care of fading in and out automatically whenever you start or stop playback. The fade doesn't have to be much, or even enough to hear. The fact that you don't hear a pop shows that the player is fading for you. So playing and stopping the Sonar timeline should also be done with a short fade.
Other posters above were referring to the phenomenon of popping when the wave is cut where there is not a zero crossing. That is often a consideration when trimming audio clips, and is another case of the same phenomenon.
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GregGraves
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/03 10:41:08
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Pops and such are the result of:
1. Your buffer is set too small. Typically you should use a smaller buffer (128?) when tracking to reduce latency. Experiment to see how low you can go, safely, then probably back up a tad larger. Use a bigger buffer when mixing (1024 minimum required for Melodyne anyway).
2. You are running out of CPU or system memory. To make matters complex, CPU usage is a function of buffer size, where the bigger the buffer the less CPU required.
3. There is an abrupt end or beginning on an audio clip. Clips should always start and end with silence ... unless you are lucky. The problem usually is related to the end of clip, where you have audio tailing off then suddenly dropping to zero.
4. The zero-crossing problem alluded to above.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/03 13:29:44
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OK, I am convinced that cuts not at zero crossings would not create the pop at the beginning and end of each start or stop of the transport/now time randomly no matter where they are occurring and would not likely do so on ripped and imported known good audio. But the same mechanism for the pop can still be operating, i.e. a sudden change in signal strength to the analog audio chain or a sudden actuation of that chain. This is what happens if you turn up your monitors high then unplug them and plug them in again. A well designed 'bounceless' switch tends to prevent this on normal switching. It is as someone else noted the effect of rushing electrons, as the speaker actuator suddenly applies tension to the speaker. But there is another potential cause in the intersection of the digital and analog domains--DC offset. The former may be something you just have to live with, and if it is not being recorded in the final mix, but is just an artifact of play in Sonar should not be a problem. The latter is something you should be able to easily diagnose, and should be fixed as it can cause other issues, although it may not be audible once play has started. http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/dc_offset.html https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X3&language=3&help=EditingAudio.22.html
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DRanck
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/03 14:02:18
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I have the same experience when starting , stopping the transport. Never an issue when rendering. I just ignore it.
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Deere101
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/03 17:33:14
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Thank you all for your help with this. Using the Fade options in the preferences helps with the popping, so I think it's just the sudden change from zero audio to full sound that causes the pop. I'll keep the zero crossing in mind when editing the audio.
Thanks again!
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Beepster
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/03 18:27:55
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bvideo
Would this be relevant for your playback issue:
Auto fade when starting/stopping playback (search for this in the manual)
Edit > Preferences -> Audio - Playback and Recording.
Fade On Start (milliseconds)
Fade On Stop (milliseconds).
This is indeed the answer as you seem to have figured out. I discovered this almost a year after first installing Sonar and the improvement was massive. Much easier on the ears. Thos pops on stop/start can really burn out your ear drums which makes it harder to focus on the mix... and for me it would give me physical ear/head aches.
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PilotGav
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Re: Popping when Starting and Stopping
2015/08/03 19:23:13
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bvideo
Would this be relevant for your playback issue:
Auto fade when starting/stopping playback (search for this in the manual)
Edit > Preferences -> Audio - Playback and Recording.
Fade On Start (milliseconds)
Fade On Stop (milliseconds).
I just did this and set the start to 2MS. It's like heaven! No more pop.
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